Mixed Vladimir Heavy Draft x Deliboz

[DaringFlaring]

Todd

He is a very strange colour and I've never seen anything like it in my life. Definitely some sort of roan with tiger eye. I really don't know? He's just very odd. (Pun: Odd like Todd (Never thought of that when I named him!))

[Andraste]

He's grey with silver brown cream roan base, and tiger eye. The white around his eyes is where he's starting to grey out - overall you were pretty close with your guess!

[Silverine]

Todd

He is a very strange colour and I've never seen anything like it in my life. Definitely some sort of roan with tiger eye. I really don't know? He's just very odd. (Pun: Odd like Todd (Never thought of that when I named him!))

Andraste was correct, but just a small caveat on the naming - brown + 1 cream is actually smoky brown, while brown cream is brown + 2 creams. Your horse is smoky brown.

[DaringFlaring]

He's grey with silver brown cream roan base, and tiger eye. The white around his eyes is where he's starting to grey out - overall you were pretty close with your guess!

I think you're right! Thanks. When you said he's going grey round his eyes, he is only two years old so I wouldn't know if it is going grey until he's a bit older. At least five.

[Silverine]

He's grey with silver brown cream roan base, and tiger eye. The white around his eyes is where he's starting to grey out - overall you were pretty close with your guess!

I think you're right! Thanks. When you said he's going grey round his eyes, he is only two years old so I wouldn't know if it is going grey until he's a bit older. At least five.

In HWO you can actually tell whether or not your horse is grey by their newborn coat. If they have full adult coloring as a baby rather than a baby coat, they will turn grey. This is your boys baby picture:


If he were the same color without grey he would not have his dark brown and would rather be more of a golden color all over. This is what a smoky brown coat looks like as a baby without grey (yours would be lighter because roan):


Here he is as an adult:


And this is a silver brown dun:


And the adult coat (taken as a yearly to avoid the Lp effects):


Also, the 'goggling' that your horse has - the grey around the eyes - is most certainly from the grey gene. Brown horses will have small red or yellow circles around the eyes (see the smoky brown horse above) but not grey as your horse does. It is also not caused by roan. Roan ends at the cheeks and does spread up to the eyes or down the nose.

Here's a non-grey smoky brown roan so that you can see where roan ends on the face:


And here's what he looked like as a baby:

[DaringFlaring]

Ahh, ok. That does make a load of sense now. But what will mine look like as an adult. Will the colour become clearer as it becomes older or will it not change as much? Because his mane is grey and tbh, it doesn't really look right at the moment.
This is his Dam;

And his Sire (which I think you already had a picture of);

[Silverine]

Ahh, ok. That does make a load of sense now. But what will mine look like as an adult. Will the colour become clearer as it becomes older or will it not change as much? Because his mane is grey and tbh, it doesn't really look right at the moment.
This is his Dam;

And his Sire (which I think you already had a picture of);

Greys change throughout their entire lifetime. The exact progression they go through varies from horse to horse. There are horses like this one that just slowly turn whiter and whiter as they age (and then usually eventually get fleabitten in their late twenties), or horses like this that gray out faster in some areas (this one also got its fly-bites earlier, though they're hard to see), or like this one that get super fleabitten. There's also horses that go through a dapple-grey phase but I can't find any of them right this second.

Edit: Aha! I found one! He's fleabitten now, but he went through a nice dapple phase when he was younger. And here's another very pretty dapple.

[DaringFlaring]

[DD] Golden Dodge was a great example, looking at his gallery and comparing it to Todd's makes me wonder, 'He will probably change any moment to a dapple!'. But then again, he is a roan after all so it might go totally the opposite direction. His Dam was a palomino then changed over time to a... I wouldn't know what to call it, like a fleabitten but the black is a palomino like colour. I guess it all comes down to genetics really, and breed traits I suppose. But we just have to wait and see. If you have any more information regarding Todd and his 'unusual' colour, replying back would be an amazing help. Thanks. (Just wanted to add that bit in, sounds a bit more polite than just thanks.)

Edit: Tygrus Florence Baseline IV of Ipswich

I did eventually get to breed Todd with a Shire x Friesan mare named Florence who is a dark champagne dun and has very slight feathering. What the result will be is a mystery. Let's just wait and see.

[Silverine]

[DD] Golden Dodge was a great example, looking at his gallery and comparing it to Todd's makes me wonder, 'He will probably change any moment to a dapple!'. But then again, he is a roan after all so it might go totally the opposite direction. His Dam was a palomino then changed over time to a... I wouldn't know what to call it, like a fleabitten but the black is a palomino like colour. I guess it all comes down to genetics really, and breed traits I suppose. But we just have to wait and see. If you have any more information regarding Todd and his 'unusual' colour, replying back would be an amazing help. Thanks. (Just wanted to add that bit in, sounds a bit more polite than just thanks.)

Edit: Tygrus Florence Baseline IV of Ipswich

I did eventually get to breed Todd with a Shire x Friesan mare named Florence who is a dark champagne dun and has very slight feathering. What the result will be is a mystery. Let's just wait and see.

His dam is fleabitten. The flea bites come out the base color. So a black horse will have black ones, a red horse will have red ones, etc. That's why the fly bites on one of the ones I posted were so light - he had a very light base coat.

If you look very closely at Todd's barrel area, he appears to have some light dappling. But it'll be hard to see on the roan.

And the mare isn't actually champagne or dun - she's a buckskin with sooty. So bay, one cream, and sooty. If she were champagne the skin on her muzzle and around her eyes would be pink with freckles. If she were dun she would have a dorsal stripe and possibly leg barring, a facial mask, and lightening of the body color. Also neither of her parents has dun or champagne, so there's nowhere she could have gotten it from. Her sire, however, also has a buckskin base and is the source of her cream gene. The below is a breakdown of her possibilities when crossed with Todd.

What we know about Todd
1.He is heterozygous for extension (E/e). We know this because he is not red-based, but his mother is. Being red-based, his mother could not give him anything other than a recessive gene. As Todd does not show red himself we know that he has the dominant gene from his father.

2. He is heterozygous brown with a hidden black (at/a). Because Todd is brown we know that he is either at/at or at/a (at is the brown allele and is recessive to either bay gene - A or + - so he can't have either). Todd's sire is also brown, so we can't deduce the other gene from looking at him. Todd's dam, however, is gold cream under her grey. Normally we wouldn't know anything about her agouti gene because we wouldn't be able to see it under the red. But both of her parents were black (a/a). This means that her agouti can not be anything other than a/a, therefore she could only give Todd an a. So he got the at from his father and is therefore at/a.

3. He is heterozygous cream with no pearl (C/n). We could figure this out from his pedigree, but it's also evident from just looking at him. His sire had no cream, so he got his single cream from his mother (who also only had one cream). He does not have pearl. His mother does not have pearl (we would see it in her coat if she did) and his sire's lines do not carry pearl so he does not have. (We'd also be able to see it if he did.)

4. He does not have champagne or dun (ch/ch, d/d), and he is heterozygous for silver (Z/z) and roan (R/r). We know he is not champagne because he is not freckled. He could have inherited it from his mother, but she happened to not pass it along. We know he is not dun because neither parent carries dun so there is nowhere he could have received it from. He is roan, but only his father is roan, therefore he can only have one copy of the roan gene. He is silver, but his sire does not carry it. That means he had to get it from his dam. We can't see it on her because she is red-based, but we can see it on her mother.

5. He is homozygous for tiger eye (T/T). We know this because of his bright blue eyes. Blue eyes can be caused by double cream, which Todd is not, or by one cream combined with tiger eye. Because he only has one cream we know he also needs tiger eye to have blue eyes. He is also not champagne, therefore he needs two copies of the tiger eye gene for it to show.


What we know about the mare
1. She is heterozygous for extension (E/e). We wouldn't know this from looking at her or her pedigree because her ancestors for at least two generations were all non-red. However she did throw a red-based foal so we know she has a hidden recessive gene.

2. At this point there is no way to know if the mare is homozygous bay or not (A/A or A/?). Both of her parents were bay, but her sire had a black dam so we know he has a hidden black and it's possible he passed it on to her. The only way we'll be able to find out what her agouti is is by breeding her. Unfortunately her only foal is palomino, so we can't draw any conclusions from it.

3. She is heterozygous cream with no pearl (C/n). We know this by looking at her. She has the yellow body and black legs, muzzle, mane, and tail of a buckskin. Her sire was also buckskin based and is where she got her cream from.

4. She does not have champagne, dun, silver, or roan (ch/ch, d/d, z/z, r/r). Again we can conclude this by looking at her, and also by looking at her pedigree. She does not have the freckles of a champagne, and neither parent is champagne, therefore she does not have it. She does not have the markings of a dun, and neither parent is dun, therefore she is not dun. She does not have the dilution effects of the silver gene, and neither parent is silver, therefore she is not silver. Her body is not roaned, and neither parent is roan, therefore she is not roan.

5. We do not know her tiger eye gene. I did not find any obvious tiger eye in her pedigree, but as she's not champagne and most of her ancestors aren't either it's still possible that it's hiding in there. So she's either T/t or t/t.

So what are the foal possibilities?
1. There is a 25% chance the foal will be red-based (e/e) and a 75% that it will be black-based (E/e - 50%, or E/E - 25%).

2. If the foal is black-based things get a little more complicated. We know Todd is at/a, but aren't quite sure on the mare. If she is homozygous bay (A/A), then the foal will always be bay if it is not red (A/at - 50% or A/a - 50%). Otherwise the foal still has a 50% chance to be bay (A/at - 25%, or A/a - 25%) but the other possibilities depend on the mare's hidden gene. Most likely she would be hiding black from her sire, in which case the remaining 50% would be broken up into 25% brown (at/a) and 25% black (a/a) based on what Todd throws. If she has the much more unlikely (based on her pedigree) hidden brown, then other 50% would be brown, but with 25% heterozygous (at/a) and 25% homozygous (at/at).

3. As both parents carry a single cream the foal has a 25% chance to be double-cream (C/C), a 50% chance to be single-cream (C/n), and a 25% chance to be undiluted (n/n).

4. The foal will not be champagne or dun. However it could be silver - (Z/z - 50%, z/z - 50%) - and it could be roan - (R/r - 50%, r/r - 50%).

5. The foal will have at least one tiger eye gene. If the dam does not have a tiger eye gene (which is the most likely option) then the foal will only have one tiger eye gene (T/t - 100%), otherwise the foal has a chance to be heterozygous dominant or homozygous recessive (T/t - 50%, t/t - 50%).

Bottom line: Lots of possibilities, but none super crazy. The most likely outcome probability-wise is some sort of buckskin.

[DaringFlaring]

Hi, sorry I took so long, I have just been notified about Todd's new foal. I wouldn't really say much more besides your predictions were more less spot on. I'll send you the link to 'Rumpel' and you can say your thoughts on him and him growing up.
Rumpel