Do not sell horses to this player

[Honeybunny#2]

Hey guys!
Sorry... I had to leave my comment on this topic:
1. Training does "flip" horses, nothing wrong with that, but it can be frustrating for the breeder!
2. Their sale posts often look like this:
Hi Honeybunny,
I would like to purchase this horse: http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/2000531
Please tell me the price!
Thanks,
Prancer
3. They buy up a TON of horses for a low price to make a profit! Again nothing wrong with that!
4. What is the problem:
a. The horse they linked is worth 40K at least! She is a trained Belgian Filly with high HGP and very nice stats!
b. Training will offer around 5K because they can't make profit when the horse costs them 40K
c. If owner says that the offer is to low... Training will play the "New" card... and make you feel bad
d. The truth is that I have had them pay 50K no problem!

All this is to say... be firm on your prices... you can't control what they do... but if your prices are good it will be harder for someone to flip!

I didn't offer 5K,I was thinking 60K .And that she has a 57K HGP.

XD... don't worry my friend! I wasn't talking about that horse... I was talking about other sale transactions I have watched you make... (I stalk every forum... XD) I know you have a good value system... you also know what your horses are worth! I have no problem with you fliping! I was validating Shadow and pointing a few things out... Also my post was not done... look at my reply to HOF 2 below!

[Honeybunny#2]

I agree with Black Oak... Also please don't judge Shadow! She is very nice and it isn't about money!! She was just upset! And I understand her frustration!

I think what Shadow did was wrong...I don't want to play this game anymore..

You are right!! What Shadow did WAS wrong!! However I know how she feels... It is frustrating to see someone able to sell your horse for more than you could! Please guys... STOP beating Shadow or Training up!!

[Training Services]

I think what Shadow did was wrong...I don't want to play this game anymore..

You are right!! What Shadow did WAS wrong!! However I know how she feels... It is frustrating to see someone able to sell your horse for more than you could! Please guys... STOP beating Shadow or Training up!!

Shadow didn't even read this XD

[Honeybunny#2]

You are right!! What Shadow did WAS wrong!! However I know how she feels... It is frustrating to see someone able to sell your horse for more than you could! Please guys... STOP beating Shadow or Training up!!

Shadow didn't even read this XD

XD! My biggest rule in life... READ THE DRAMA YOU MADE!! XD

[BlackOak2]

...

Do not leave because of one incident. Leave for a good reason.

Because of the history (almost) every player comes in with, when dealing with previous games and gaming communities, we all eventually have our moments.
Even I did, a few times, with a couple players. They proved their points, I proved mine and eventually the problem was settled. And for the most part, we all stuck it out long enough to return to enjoying the game (at least those I remember). Since then, there hasn't been any issues between us.

A few things you should keep in mind. If you do flip and not purchase, change the horse, then put back up for sale... if you do flip horses, you should understand that a player that does not know this, might indeed get aggravated. To alleviate this, you could (could, you do not have to), tell them that you're purchasing to flip. You're taking the horse off their hands in quick manner and are taking the responsibility of said horse for the length of time it takes to re-sell said horse. This will end comments about flipping (rather should, since you told them fright from the start).
Also, beginning training on every horse that you would instead just flip, would change the basic definition of flipping into, purchasing to train and sell again. Thus, putting a horse right back up, but also applying training with every turn does change the price of the horse.

If you do decide to continue to flip (which there is nothing wrong with, even long-term players could have use with a flipper service), maybe make a specific topic for just that purpose and every contact and horse that comes through that topic are specifically for that service.

Like I said first, this was just a misunderstanding. Nothing more, nothing less. It does take time for some players or some types of play to integrate into our community, but once integrated, it becomes a part of, a supporting feature of and a useful tool for the entire community. We do have a couple flippers, that go by the name 'rescue stables'. These generally will only purchase horses for less then $100 and mostly off the market. Personally, I prefer direct contact made with owners, rather than cruising the market and snatching such horses. I'm not the only one that cruises the market for certain horses as our goals and projects change for just that one specific horse, which was probably up for a year or more... I'm sure you get the idea now.
Flippers are fine and useful (I include rescue stables in this, of course), especially if they have a freeze account that can allow horses to be left on market or in their sales ad for a long time. Eventually, most horses will sell (if the price is appropriately estimated), but sometimes, like I said, it does take a long time.


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Now for the rest of the comments. And of course, for the community at large.
Shadow_Hills did nothing wrong as well. It was a knee-* reaction. We are allowed to feel how we feel, but how we respond and react is what can be the incorrect outcome. We are also allowed to offer our problems to the community. Perhaps how it was said was incorrect or perhaps even rude, but the community stepped up, in short order, to reset what was said. And also from both sides. The matter appeared to have been solved.
We did have some further comments and misunderstanding about the matter and what it pertained to, why people do so, what it means and so on.
So as a community we must remember to answer these with the understanding that when we do, we can prevent further incidents from happening and that our players will learn further how the community feels about such incidents and services and how we will be handling issues in the future. If we handle it right, then everybody feels the ability to ask and offer, will step forward with things they don't understand for that understanding and will overall feel better and safer about being a part of the game. Thus the game will become what a game is meant to be, a place to be relieved of stress and enjoyed to the full extent of our ability.

Panka33, perhaps you didn't use Shadow_Hills once in your response, but it did come across as a direct comment to them. Next time, to prevent such thoughts (especially in English when the you is understood to be the person in question, in this case the topic author), you can use 'a player'. This way, it won't be misunderstood by a person reading the topic or response that is actually reading what's there and not assuming something that it isn't.
There are many reasons why a player might sell a horse to a flipper. Although we see in this situation, it was likely misunderstood that the horse was going to be flipped. On one hand, the seller considered selling their horse for less than perhaps what they thought it was worth. Or maybe they thought the horse was only worth that much. Offers Only is a great way to figure out how much a horse might be worth, of course there may be no offers put in at all. On the other hand, the buyer found a horse that might take time to find a new owner for. And in seeing a horse that would be in this situation and an original owner that may instead let the horse age out, they step forward to fulfill not just two, but three separate purposes. One is the sale of a horse quick. Two is the sale of a horse eventually to a new owner that has need of said horse. And three, monies earned between the two sales from keeping the horse on freeze (whether the horse was actually on freeze or not).
Like I said before, I do think that this was a misunderstanding between the two parties. The words 'flipping' was likely not used, thus when the original owner took notice of the horse going back up for sale, it did likely bother then to a great degree.
Unless I missed something, I think that was the bulk and underlying question you had? Or did I miss something?
Little_Cookie771 answered you what a grinder is. Only thing I would like to add, is that a grinder generally (but not always) comes from stock in the HGP ranges of mid 40's to low 60's, with the best generally seen in the low to mid 50 range (the best is my general opinion though. I have had my own best grinders in that range, others may have seen their best grinders in much different ranges).

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Are there any other questions, comments, concerns from anybody?

[Thundering Horses]

Guys I'm sick of this,

It's FINE If you like me now I was a horse flipper when I first started and thats how I got my first 20k so quit picking on people. cuz i'm DONE

[HallOfFame 2]

....

This has gone on way too far...let's just learn from this mistake and move on from it. People need to stop publicly exposing each other and beating them up for things out of their control. The game is supposed to be a Community, and a community cannot exist when people are constantly harassing each other...let's let the people who were all part of this work it and let BlackOak2 and whoever else do whatever they can to calm this matter so that this happens less frequently than it has been. But the rest of us should stay out of it, because I feel like a lot of people feel attacked when people didn't mean to do it.

That's just my opinion.

~ HOF 2

[panka33]

...

Do not leave because of one incident. Leave for a good reason.

Because of the history (almost) every player comes in with, when dealing with previous games and gaming communities, we all eventually have our moments.
Even I did, a few times, with a couple players. They proved their points, I proved mine and eventually the problem was settled. And for the most part, we all stuck it out long enough to return to enjoying the game (at least those I remember). Since then, there hasn't been any issues between us.

A few things you should keep in mind. If you do flip and not purchase, change the horse, then put back up for sale... if you do flip horses, you should understand that a player that does not know this, might indeed get aggravated. To alleviate this, you could (could, you do not have to), tell them that you're purchasing to flip. You're taking the horse off their hands in quick manner and are taking the responsibility of said horse for the length of time it takes to re-sell said horse. This will end comments about flipping (rather should, since you told them fright from the start).
Also, beginning training on every horse that you would instead just flip, would change the basic definition of flipping into, purchasing to train and sell again. Thus, putting a horse right back up, but also applying training with every turn does change the price of the horse.

If you do decide to continue to flip (which there is nothing wrong with, even long-term players could have use with a flipper service), maybe make a specific topic for just that purpose and every contact and horse that comes through that topic are specifically for that service.

Like I said first, this was just a misunderstanding. Nothing more, nothing less. It does take time for some players or some types of play to integrate into our community, but once integrated, it becomes a part of, a supporting feature of and a useful tool for the entire community. We do have a couple flippers, that go by the name 'rescue stables'. These generally will only purchase horses for less then $100 and mostly off the market. Personally, I prefer direct contact made with owners, rather than cruising the market and snatching such horses. I'm not the only one that cruises the market for certain horses as our goals and projects change for just that one specific horse, which was probably up for a year or more... I'm sure you get the idea now.
Flippers are fine and useful (I include rescue stables in this, of course), especially if they have a freeze account that can allow horses to be left on market or in their sales ad for a long time. Eventually, most horses will sell (if the price is appropriately estimated), but sometimes, like I said, it does take a long time.


*******************

...

...

...

Now for the rest of the comments. And of course, for the community at large.
Shadow_Hills did nothing wrong as well. It was a knee-* reaction. We are allowed to feel how we feel, but how we respond and react is what can be the incorrect outcome. We are also allowed to offer our problems to the community. Perhaps how it was said was incorrect or perhaps even rude, but the community stepped up, in short order, to reset what was said. And also from both sides. The matter appeared to have been solved.
We did have some further comments and misunderstanding about the matter and what it pertained to, why people do so, what it means and so on.
So as a community we must remember to answer these with the understanding that when we do, we can prevent further incidents from happening and that our players will learn further how the community feels about such incidents and services and how we will be handling issues in the future. If we handle it right, then everybody feels the ability to ask and offer, will step forward with things they don't understand for that understanding and will overall feel better and safer about being a part of the game. Thus the game will become what a game is meant to be, a place to be relieved of stress and enjoyed to the full extent of our ability.

Panka33, perhaps you didn't use Shadow_Hills once in your response, but it did come across as a direct comment to them. Next time, to prevent such thoughts (especially in English when the you is understood to be the person in question, in this case the topic author), you can use 'a player'. This way, it won't be misunderstood by a person reading the topic or response that is actually reading what's there and not assuming something that it isn't.
There are many reasons why a player might sell a horse to a flipper. Although we see in this situation, it was likely misunderstood that the horse was going to be flipped. On one hand, the seller considered selling their horse for less than perhaps what they thought it was worth. Or maybe they thought the horse was only worth that much. Offers Only is a great way to figure out how much a horse might be worth, of course there may be no offers put in at all. On the other hand, the buyer found a horse that might take time to find a new owner for. And in seeing a horse that would be in this situation and an original owner that may instead let the horse age out, they step forward to fulfill not just two, but three separate purposes. One is the sale of a horse quick. Two is the sale of a horse eventually to a new owner that has need of said horse. And three, monies earned between the two sales from keeping the horse on freeze (whether the horse was actually on freeze or not).
Like I said before, I do think that this was a misunderstanding between the two parties. The words 'flipping' was likely not used, thus when the original owner took notice of the horse going back up for sale, it did likely bother then to a great degree.
Unless I missed something, I think that was the bulk and underlying question you had? Or did I miss something?
Little_Cookie771 answered you what a grinder is. Only thing I would like to add, is that a grinder generally (but not always) comes from stock in the HGP ranges of mid 40's to low 60's, with the best generally seen in the low to mid 50 range (the best is my general opinion though. I have had my own best grinders in that range, others may have seen their best grinders in much different ranges).

********
Are there any other questions, comments, concerns from anybody?

Yes, please, if you let me make some suggestions.

What I am saying is meant generally do not reflect on any person.

In my understanding flipping horses is grey area in this game. There are no rules, but there are some expectations. Unfortunately, this is a straight way to misunderstandings. Probably far more occasions than it become vocalized.

If in the [Edit 'For Sale' Advertisement] window, there are a possibilities to check boxes like:

*you cannot sell the horse more than you bought it for,
* you cannot change the prefix of the horse,
*you cannot change name of the horse
*you cannot rehome it
and so on,

and actually the game won't let you do it, many people would be saved from frustration and the buyer would know exactly what paying for.
Even the administrators could sleep more peacefully.

[Thundering Horses]

It's freaking stupid guys shadow I'm sorry that training got to you like that but there's no stupid way that trainer needs to stop playing the game it's a disagreement and it's gotten way too overboard and I really hope some backs me up on this because I'm gonna feel like a complete idiot typing all this. So please I'm sorry that the person asked for more money than you sold the horse for but like other people have said flipping horses is not a rule in the game but the one thing that annoys me the most is that we are almost targeting people and this needs to stop its stupid . But we need her put this behind us we need to pretend that never happened even though it did and people need to let things slide and forget about it.



If you want to talk more AND give me the full story come on a 5:00 my time it is 4:10 Whalen I am posting this.

[BlackOak2]

Yes, please, if you let me make some suggestions.

What I am saying is meant generally do not reflect on any person.

In my understanding flipping horses is grey area in this game. There are no rules, but there are some expectations. Unfortunately, this is a straight way to misunderstandings. Probably far more occasions than it become vocalized.

If in the [Edit 'For Sale' Advertisement] window, there are a possibilities to check boxes like:

*you cannot sell the horse more than you bought it for,
* you cannot change the prefix of the horse,
*you cannot change name of the horse
*you cannot rehome it
and so on,

and actually the game won't let you do it, many people would be saved from frustration and the buyer would know exactly what paying for.
Even the administrators could sleep more peacefully.

First, thank you for continuing to participate and talk things out.

It may be a nice addition, but it may be VERY hard to apply into the game (coding and such), then there is nothing stopping the concurrent owners from selling the horse a second time and doing anything else. Plus, if we were to travel down this road and our admins were to add this to the game, and for instance, make it a permanent application (such as ANY owner thereafter would be held to these options), then we would indeed have an overpopulation of horses that could be considered unwanted, so the only option thereafter would be age out. How many spaces could one farm offer to consistently and constantly age out unwanted horses? We do already have this issue when a horse has offspring, living or not, a horse like this cannot be rehomed and can only be aged out.

As for prefixes, this will disappear as soon as our admins finalize and input the coding required for this. We will be able to add breeder's markings to our own horses one day. It just hasn't yet been added. What we have in the names is only a stopgap until our coding for prefixes is added to the game. Once done so, breeder's marks will not be able to be changed by anybody but the original breeder, plus... there have been talks about having purebloods retain a registered name (unable to be changed by anybody but the original breeder)... this has a bit of dispute on both sides, so I'm not sure which way our admins will take the registered names.

Personally, I think the main reason we don't have such options like this, however, is because we have more freedom. Our admins don't want to restrict us in such ways. Certain underage groups can't even name the horses, they are left to whatever the random name generator pulls up and so often, I think... What the? What kind of name is THAT!? I do feel a bit sorry for our underage that are restricted to not being able to name their own horses. Yet, I also understand the reasoning behind it.

Perhaps it would save some frustrations for certain people if we were to add any of these options to the game, but the bulk of us I think, like the fact that such things are not a part of the game. Perhaps I'm wrong about that though...

Flipping is likely only a gray area because we don't have many people doing so. It's not a big part of the game. There are some expectations and are indeed misunderstandings, so you're very right in this respect. But restricting our freedoms to alleviate a small population or relatively minor number of misunderstanding incidents from occurring is a bit overkill (like taking a shotgun to kill a fly, although many of us have felt that need on occasion! ).

So we must help integrate the flipping community into our game, make such things like gray areas a bit more black and white, create some rules if absolutely necessary and help either correct or satisfy players that feel taken advantage of. If we do so as a community, the art of flipping can be very beneficial to our community.
This is actually, not too far removed from when people started training for other people. We had a lot of gray areas and a lot of misunderstandings as well. Such things have disappeared as the training service has become integrated and things were worked out. Now even a newbie generally understands and accepts that basic training will cost them between 15k and 25k, depending on who they ask, but as a newbie, they could get away with even free training.

So, may I ask you a question...
How would you feel about looking at a horse that has all of those options tagged? Would you immediately overlook it? Would you consider overlooking it? Would it have a bearing on your option to purchase it at all? How you feel about it, should offer you insight into how some of our community might also feel.

To answer these questions for myself: There is a good chance if I see some, any or especially all of these options tagged, I would likely bypass the horse for one that didn't. Not because I care about it, I don't generally ever rehome a horse I bought. I rarely change the name of a horse (unless it's spelled absolutely wrong and doesn't appear to be a 'special' spelling, such as Rayne for Rain). I don't delete a prefix as a consideration to what we can't yet do. And as far as selling as a flip... I'm not a flipper. The horse always changes in some form while in my care, usually for breeding purposes, or even trained...
Although there is one time I did flip a horse. It wasn't planned. But because of this, I did actually forward the benefit of that sale back to the original owner. But that was my choice. In this instance, I would have been restricted to doing so, I wouldn't have been able to resell that horse to the extreme benefit of the new owner. In this case, I would have been decently unhappy that I would've been restricted.

So, you see, in my opinion, I really like having my freedom. But maybe I'm in the minority of that. I would prefer to not restrict certain things with our sales system. Actually, I would prefer to not really have any restrictions to our sales system. There are times I get frustrated that offers only horses are in there now for more than a year, with no sign of the owner visiting their account... yet they still remain... taking up space... and nobody can purchase the horse... there are a few I'd like to get my hands on, to this day...