Dun or not?

[stickers]

Between my inexperience with all the sneaky ways that Dun can appear, and my laptop's awful monitor, I could use some help identifying whether or not they're displaying Dun. I had expected them all to show it, because I'd thought all of them had at least one double-Dun parent, but maybe that's not the case. I could also use some help double-checking whether or not these guys are mealy.

Bullet Crown

I can't tell if this lady has Dun, or if it's just the varnish kicking in. And not mealy?


Charming Bull

This one is cleary Dun, and I think she's a little mealy?


Charming Superstition

Definitely mealy, but... is there sneaky Dun in there?? Is she just Bay?


Thump

Definitely mealy, but I'm again on the fence about Dun. I can't see clearly enough on this monitor to tell.


Regal Orchestra

No mealy, maybe faint Dun?


Out of Bullets

Roan, not mealy, but is there Dun under there too?

[BlackOak2]

Between my inexperience with all the sneaky ways that Dun can appear, and my laptop's awful monitor, I could use some help identifying whether or not they're displaying Dun. I had expected them all to show it, because I'd thought all of them had at least one double-Dun parent, but maybe that's not the case. I could also use some help double-checking whether or not these guys are mealy.

I can't tell if this lady has Dun, or if it's just the varnish kicking in. And not mealy?


This one is cleary Dun, and I think she's a little mealy?


Definitely mealy, but... is there sneaky Dun in there?? Is she just Bay?


Definitely mealy, but I'm again on the fence about Dun. I can't see clearly enough on this monitor to tell.


No mealy, maybe faint Dun?


Roan, not mealy, but is there Dun under there too?

Bullet is a tricky one. It does appear that as a yearling, she has dun, but there doesn't appear to be any dun mask as a newborn. But I do see some hesitant striping on her legs as she matures. Varnish is handy in both hiding some indicators (which is frustrating), but also bringing them out as it progresses. I'd say, yes to dun, but no to pangare.

Bull is both dun and mealy (pangare). The light around the muzzle and underneath her stomach and trailing down her legs is clear indicators of pangare.

Superstition does have dun. It's extremely hard to see, but there is a very gentle mask that appears to 'lighten' the entire body coat. Plus, if you look closely, there is a distinct, though hard to see dorsal stripe.

Thump is the same as Superstition, although she's easier to see the dorsal line.

Regal does also appear to have dun, but not pangare. I see no indicators (around the muzzle, under the stomach or down the legs) for pangare.

If you take a look at Bullets ankles, you will see a color shift. This color shift is indicative of dun as well. But there are some other reasons the ankles will appear to shift like this as well. Wild bay's appear to have this, when they don't have dun. Sometimes pangare will discolor this area, but in not quite the same fashion. The worst one to distinguish from it is often flaxen. But this particular color shift on Bullets ankles is from dun. If you look at her 1 year picture, it's quite evident. Dun, roan, but I agree, no pangare.

[stickers]

Bullet is a tricky one. It does appear that as a yearling, she has dun, but there doesn't appear to be any dun mask as a newborn. But I do see some hesitant striping on her legs as she matures. Varnish is handy in both hiding some indicators (which is frustrating), but also bringing them out as it progresses. I'd say, yes to dun, but no to pangare.

Bull is both dun and mealy (pangare). The light around the muzzle and underneath her stomach and trailing down her legs is clear indicators of pangare.

Superstition does have dun. It's extremely hard to see, but there is a very gentle mask that appears to 'lighten' the entire body coat. Plus, if you look closely, there is a distinct, though hard to see dorsal stripe.

Thump is the same as Superstition, although she's easier to see the dorsal line.

Regal does also appear to have dun, but not pangare. I see no indicators (around the muzzle, under the stomach or down the legs) for pangare.

If you take a look at Bullets ankles, you will see a color shift. This color shift is indicative of dun as well. But there are some other reasons the ankles will appear to shift like this as well. Wild bay's appear to have this, when they don't have dun. Sometimes pangare will discolor this area, but in not quite the same fashion. The worst one to distinguish from it is often flaxen. But this particular color shift on Bullets ankles is from dun. If you look at her 1 year picture, it's quite evident. Dun, roan, but I agree, no pangare.

this really helps a lot, especially where I really can't see some of the details on this monitor. Some of those dorsal stripes, masking, and Bull's pangare still pretty much invisible to me even after they're pointed out. Thanks for being a second pair of eyes for me, and for all the detailed info!

[BlackOak2]

this really helps a lot, especially where I really can't see some of the details on this monitor. Some of those dorsal stripes, masking, and Bull's pangare still pretty much invisible to me even after they're pointed out. Thanks for being a second pair of eyes for me, and for all the detailed info!

Anytime!


Perhaps the contrast may help when you identify horse colors. Turn the color down to almost black & white and the contrast up. It should highlight certain things like dorsal stripes, leg stripes and even to a small degree pangare. Depending on how much your monitor can adjust, it may be enough to see what you're missing. Of course, this is probably easier for you.

[stickers]

Perhaps the contrast may help when you identify horse colors. Turn the color down to almost black & white and the contrast up. It should highlight certain things like dorsal stripes, leg stripes and even to a small degree pangare. Depending on how much your monitor can adjust, it may be enough to see what you're missing. Of course, this is probably easier for you.

Ooo, I don't know how much this laptop can adjust its settings, but I'll definitely try. Thanks!

[stickers]

So, as it turns out, even with adjusting my monitor settings, there are still some horses that are just too subtle for me to be sure about. Once more, any help would be appreciated.

I'm trying to weed out Dun entirely from this line, so I really need to be as sure as possible about whether these guys are showing it or not. These are the ones that I really can't decide for sure:

Charming Thunder

I think I see a dorsal stripe, but am not sure.


Thumping Bull

Flaxen mealy chestnut, with no dun?


Thunder Crown

I really can't tell around the mealy and varnish.


Bull Orchestra

I'm hoping this guy is just mealy bay but I can't tell for sure.


Also, am I right in understanding that dun is just a simple dominant gene? I bred duns to non-duns, and then those results to each other...so, wouldn't each of these third generation offspring have a 50/50 chance of showing dun or non-dun? I feel like the duns are seriously winning out, so I'm worrying that I'm misunderstanding something in the process here.

EDIT: Haha... after some sleep, I realized my mistake here. Getting a non-dun from two dun/non-dun crosses would be 25% chance, not a 50%, right?

[BlackOak2]

So, as it turns out, even with adjusting my monitor settings, there are still some horses that are just too subtle for me to be sure about. Once more, any help would be appreciated.

I'm trying to weed out Dun entirely from this line, so I really need to be as sure as possible about whether these guys are showing it or not. These are the ones that I really can't decide for sure:


I think I see a dorsal stripe, but am not sure.


Flaxen mealy chestnut, with no dun?


I really can't tell around the mealy and varnish.


I'm hoping this guy is just mealy bay but I can't tell for sure.


Also, am I right in understanding that dun is just a simple dominant gene? I bred duns to non-duns, and then those results to each other...so, wouldn't each of these third generation offspring have a 50/50 chance of showing dun or non-dun? I feel like the duns are seriously winning out, so I'm worrying that I'm misunderstanding something in the process here.

EDIT: Haha... after some sleep, I realized my mistake here. Getting a non-dun from two dun/non-dun crosses would be 25% chance, not a 50%, right?

So I'll start by explaining the dun gene. Dun is simple dominant. One gene will express, two genes won't change expression. A double dun carrier to a non-dun will always give dun (100% chance). A single dun carrier to a non-dun will only offer a 50% chance. Half and half.
There are two issues you might be experiencing. The flip-of-the-coin expression (which just means you have rather poor luck in always passing on that single dun expression). Or the cryptic problem, which I've had this same problem with pangare. In this second case, it's as simply as the gene expression is so gently expressed, it's not seen; we simply overlook it. Also, in this second case, some or all of these cryptic carriers may be a double gene carrier as well.
So, onward to the horses.

Charming Thunder
Not only is there a dorsal stripe, but do you see how his body appears to have a washed-out look? This is what I called the 'dun mask'. He not only carries it as a foal, but also as an adult.
Definitely dun.

Thumping Bull
I agree. Flaxen chestnut with pangare and no signs of dun.

Thunder Crown
That's the trouble with varnish. I don't see any certain signs of dun either. So I'd have to say no dun. But like you, I'm not certain of it either, mainly because as a foal, there does appear to be a dun mask. However, not all foal masking is due to dun mask, often times foal pangare can contribute to a weird expression of a mask. But... I'd say, no dun.

Bull Orchestra
I don't see any indicators of dun on this one either.

[stickers]

...

I forgot to thank you for your last assessment! I'm feeling a little more confident in identifying some sneakier Duns... but there are still a few that I'm really on the fence about.

These two for instance. I keep going back and forth on whether or not they have a dorsal stripe or light body masking (especially with the one that might be varnishing). What are your (or anyone else's!) thoughts on these two?

Regal Crown


Regal Bully

[BlackOak2]

...

I forgot to thank you for your last assessment! I'm feeling a little more confident in identifying some sneakier Duns... but there are still a few that I'm really on the fence about.

These two for instance. I keep going back and forth on whether or not they have a dorsal stripe or light body masking (especially with the one that might be varnishing). What are your (or anyone else's!) thoughts on these two?

No problem with the appreciation. I know it's there.

Okay, so the next step to Identification of dun genes...
You may not be able to see it (after all, I recall clearly that your pc screen is, let's say not new), so I'm going to assume you can't see it.
So on Regal Crown, there is definitely dun. It's extremely hard to see, but on his neck, he has a dun marking. It looks like this:

He appears to have no other indicator markings, except for the gentle dusting on his fetlocks, which could easily be mistaken for color variation or even Lp varnish. But you're absolutely correct, he is one tough cookie to decide on dun factor.

Now for Bully, I see no indicators at all. Although it does look a little like a mask, it carries throughout her entire face, so I don't believe it's a dun mask at all and in fact is just a bay color variation.

So, Crown, the colt, definitely dun and Bully, the filly, definitely no signs of dun.

[stickers]

...

Wow! Yeah, even with the contrast tweaked on my monitor (which doesn't actually shift that far) I don't see neck markings on Crown. I specifically looked for all the places that I knew to look for faint striping, including the neck/shoulder, and I'd thought he was clear. So, thank you for spotting that. It remains invisible to me.

And thanks for verifying for the filly. My hope was that the weird sort of mask-like shade to her body was just a normal variation and not Dun, so it's reassuring to know that you think so as well. I shall add her to the No-Dun pile!