A little bit confused on this color. Maybe Pearl?

[AquatonianFarms]

http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1443096 << This is the filly in question

Hello! I'm a little bit confused on this filly!

I'm pretty sure the sire is a palomino roan
>> http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1442541 << Sire


And I'm pretty sure dam is a bay paint (I'm thinking tobiano? I'm not sure on the paint genes 100%)
>> http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1440890 << Dam


The filly, at first, I thought cremello, but, there's only one possible CR gene to be passed down. So, I'm pretty sure that's scratched out. I think she's a bit light to be just a palomino though, I'm not sure.

I know there's other genes and what not that can hide and such, but I'm not certain on how those work. I've not had expirience with those.

I'm wondering if there's maybe a Pearl gene or something? Though, I thought there had to be two pearl genes to show up? If someone could please help me figure this out, that'd be awesome! Also I wouldn't mind a horse color and geno lesson either, haha.
I did look at some color guides, too, trying to figure it out, but other oppinions and help are greatly appriciated!

Thank you much!

[BlackOak2]

http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1443096 << This is the filly in question

Hello! I'm a little bit confused on this filly!

I'm pretty sure the sire is a palomino roan
>> http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1442541 << Sire


And I'm pretty sure dam is a bay paint (I'm thinking tobiano? I'm not sure on the paint genes 100%)
>> http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1440890 << Dam


The filly, at first, I thought cremello, but, there's only one possible CR gene to be passed down. So, I'm pretty sure that's scratched out. I think she's a bit light to be just a palomino though, I'm not sure.

I know there's other genes and what not that can hide and such, but I'm not certain on how those work. I've not had expirience with those.

I'm wondering if there's maybe a Pearl gene or something? Though, I thought there had to be two pearl genes to show up? If someone could please help me figure this out, that'd be awesome! Also I wouldn't mind a horse color and geno lesson either, haha.
I did look at some color guides, too, trying to figure it out, but other oppinions and help are greatly appriciated!

Thank you much!

You are correct about two pearls. You need two in order for pearl to express itself. However, when paired with a cream, it will offer a psuedo-double cream effect.

According to our guides, an AC NAB can have any combination of these genes (this guide found in the color forum):
A+/A+, A+/A, A+/At, A+/a (Wild Bay) | A/A, A/At, A/a (Bay) | At/At, At/a (Brown) | a/a (Black)
E/E, E/e (black-based) | e/e (red-based, chestnut)
F/F, F/f (Not Flaxen) | f/f (Flaxen)
Z/Z, Z/z (Silver) | f/f (not silver)
Sty/Sty, Sty/sty (Sooty) | sty/sty (Not Sooty)
Cr/Cr (Double Cream) | Cr/n (Single Cream) | n/n (No Cream) | Pr/n (Single Pearl) | Pr/Pr (Double Pearl) | Cr/Pr (Cream-Pearl)
P/P, P/p (Mealy/Pangare) | p/p (Not Mealy/Pangare)
D/D, D/d (Dun) | d/d (not dun)
Rn/Rn, Rn/rn (Roan) | rn/rn (Not Roan)
Ch/Ch, Ch/ch (Champagne) | ch/ch (Not Champagne)
Tg/Tg (Double Tiger-Eye) | Tg/tg (Single Tiger-Eye) | tg/tg (Not Tiger-Eye)

Although some will override others (in the case of agouti, which your parent mare has) and some cannot exist when others do (as cream and pearl share the same locus, meaning you can have two creams, a cream and a pearl, two pearls but you cannot have two creams and two pearls or two creams and a single pearl or two pearls and a single cream). You will also remember that even though the AC NAB can have any combination of the preceding genes, it will not carry all of them.

So it does make your parent mare very limited to what she carries. She's agouti, so that means she must carry one black gene. She shows no pangare or dun, since these are dominant, she cannot carry either of these, so they cannot be passed down. Flaxen is unknown, since it's recessive and only shows itself when paired with chestnut (which is also recessive, but must be kept in mind that it overrides any agouti). She does not have any silver (silver expresses whenever not chestnut), which is dominant. Sooty is negligible and may or may not be making her coat darker (or may darken it as she ages). Sooty is a gene that makes horses appear a little off or two-sided at times. There is also no roan to pass on, which is another dominant gene. Champagne is also dominant and always causes freckles (although when paired with cream or pearl, may brighten them to near non-existence). As far as tiger eye is concerned, it's a co-incomplete type of thing. when paired with champagne, one tiger gene will make the eyes hazel in color. Two regardless of coat color will offer bright green eyes, but when a single tiger eye is matched with any other color, it becomes recessive and doesn't express itself.

The parent stallion can only carry one cream gene (you're correct with that) He is a palomino roan (again correct) and carries at least one flaxen (probably two, since his pedigree shows it), but since palomino is notorious for being light anyway, it's very difficult to tell if it's just palomino or flaxen palomino.

So now we get to your filly. She has blue eyes, which she kept after blowing her foal coat. This is an indication that she is a double dilute, and since her mother offers no cream (she'd be buckskin, instead of bay), we now know that not only is your filly a cream and pearl, but her mother, the parent mare is a pearl carrier. She is also roan and probably may very well be flaxen.

This makes her a palomino pearl with most likely a hidden bay gene.

Questions?

[AquatonianFarms]

http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1443096 << This is the filly in question

Hello! I'm a little bit confused on this filly!

I'm pretty sure the sire is a palomino roan
>> http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1442541 << Sire


And I'm pretty sure dam is a bay paint (I'm thinking tobiano? I'm not sure on the paint genes 100%)
>> http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1440890 << Dam


The filly, at first, I thought cremello, but, there's only one possible CR gene to be passed down. So, I'm pretty sure that's scratched out. I think she's a bit light to be just a palomino though, I'm not sure.

I know there's other genes and what not that can hide and such, but I'm not certain on how those work. I've not had expirience with those.

I'm wondering if there's maybe a Pearl gene or something? Though, I thought there had to be two pearl genes to show up? If someone could please help me figure this out, that'd be awesome! Also I wouldn't mind a horse color and geno lesson either, haha.
I did look at some color guides, too, trying to figure it out, but other oppinions and help are greatly appriciated!

Thank you much!

You are correct about two pearls. You need two in order for pearl to express itself. However, when paired with a cream, it will offer a psuedo-double cream effect.

According to our guides, an AC NAB can have any combination of these genes (this guide found in the color forum):
A+/A+, A+/A, A+/At, A+/a (Wild Bay) | A/A, A/At, A/a (Bay) | At/At, At/a (Brown) | a/a (Black)
E/E, E/e (black-based) | e/e (red-based, chestnut)
F/F, F/f (Not Flaxen) | f/f (Flaxen)
Z/Z, Z/z (Silver) | f/f (not silver)
Sty/Sty, Sty/sty (Sooty) | sty/sty (Not Sooty)
Cr/Cr (Double Cream) | Cr/n (Single Cream) | n/n (No Cream) | Pr/n (Single Pearl) | Pr/Pr (Double Pearl) | Cr/Pr (Cream-Pearl)
P/P, P/p (Mealy/Pangare) | p/p (Not Mealy/Pangare)
D/D, D/d (Dun) | d/d (not dun)
Rn/Rn, Rn/rn (Roan) | rn/rn (Not Roan)
Ch/Ch, Ch/ch (Champagne) | ch/ch (Not Champagne)
Tg/Tg (Double Tiger-Eye) | Tg/tg (Single Tiger-Eye) | tg/tg (Not Tiger-Eye)

Although some will override others (in the case of agouti, which your parent mare has) and some cannot exist when others do (as cream and pearl share the same locus, meaning you can have two creams, a cream and a pearl, two pearls but you cannot have two creams and two pearls or two creams and a single pearl or two pearls and a single cream). You will also remember that even though the AC NAB can have any combination of the preceding genes, it will not carry all of them.

So it does make your parent mare very limited to what she carries. She's agouti, so that means she must carry one black gene. She shows no pangare or dun, since these are dominant, she cannot carry either of these, so they cannot be passed down. Flaxen is unknown, since it's recessive and only shows itself when paired with chestnut (which is also recessive, but must be kept in mind that it overrides any agouti). She does not have any silver (silver expresses whenever not chestnut), which is dominant. Sooty is negligible and may or may not be making her coat darker (or may darken it as she ages). Sooty is a gene that makes horses appear a little off or two-sided at times. There is also no roan to pass on, which is another dominant gene. Champagne is also dominant and always causes freckles (although when paired with cream or pearl, may brighten them to near non-existence). As far as tiger eye is concerned, it's a co-incomplete type of thing. when paired with champagne, one tiger gene will make the eyes hazel in color. Two regardless of coat color will offer bright green eyes, but when a single tiger eye is matched with any other color, it becomes recessive and doesn't express itself.

The parent stallion can only carry one cream gene (you're correct with that) He is a palomino roan (again correct) and carries at least one flaxen (probably two, since his pedigree shows it), but since palomino is notorious for being light anyway, it's very difficult to tell if it's just palomino or flaxen palomino.

So now we get to your filly. She has blue eyes, which she kept after blowing her foal coat. This is an indication that she is a double dilute, and since her mother offers no cream (she'd be buckskin, instead of bay), we now know that not only is your filly a cream and pearl, but her mother, the parent mare is a pearl carrier. She is also roan and probably may very well be flaxen.

This makes her a palomino pearl with most likely a hidden bay gene.

Questions?

You're amazing!
That's a very detailed and extremely helpful reply! Thank you so much!
I mostly repeating what you said to make sure I'm understanding correctly.
So cream and pearl, aren't the same, but in a way they take up the same spot. So you can have two creams, but no pearl. Two pearls but no cream. Or One of pearl. Or one of cream. Or one of pearl and cream. But not two creams and one pearl, etc.. It's only like two open spots? Anymore than two taken spots and the other doesn't exist? If that makes sense haha, I'm not the best at wording, sorry.

And agouti is the gene that is portrayed as the "A" and variations of it that are A, the A+, and the At? The lowercase "a" is meaning it's not present?
The E/e and E/E are saying black-based? So if the "A" was a/a it would just be black?
So the E/e and the A/a and the variations of Agouti that are there are bays?
So a chesnut horse could cary forms or agouti but they won't be visible unless it's black based? It's still just "chestnut"?

Again, thank you so very much! I love learning about genetic combanations. Especially horses.

[BlackOak2]

You're amazing!
That's a very detailed and extremely helpful reply! Thank you so much!
I mostly repeating what you said to make sure I'm understanding correctly.
So cream and pearl, aren't the same, but in a way they take up the same spot. So you can have two creams, but no pearl. Two pearls but no cream. Or One of pearl. Or one of cream. Or one of pearl and cream. But not two creams and one pearl, etc.. It's only like two open spots? Anymore than two taken spots and the other doesn't exist? If that makes sense haha, I'm not the best at wording, sorry. That's correct.

And agouti is the gene that is portrayed as the "A" and variations of it that are A, the A+, and the At? The lowercase "a" is meaning it's not present? Correct. 'a' would mean that agouti is not expressed.
The E/e and E/E are saying black-based? So if the "A" was a/a it would just be black? Correct.
So the E/e and the A/a and the variations of Agouti that are there are bays? Yes. Any other than 'a' agouti on black (EE or Ee) would reveal agouti over black. Agouti is: AA AAt AA+ A+At and so on.
So a chesnut horse could cary forms or agouti but they won't be visible unless it's black based? It's still just "chestnut"? Correct.

Again, thank you so very much! I love learning about genetic combanations. Especially horses.

You're welcome.

I like genetics as well. Once you get the hang of it, reading color from a gene string becomes much easier on the site. Eventually, we'll have some sort of genetic testing, but since this is a 'realistically' based game, exactly what those genetic tests will be is still questionable.

[AquatonianFarms]

You're amazing!
That's a very detailed and extremely helpful reply! Thank you so much!
I mostly repeating what you said to make sure I'm understanding correctly.
So cream and pearl, aren't the same, but in a way they take up the same spot. So you can have two creams, but no pearl. Two pearls but no cream. Or One of pearl. Or one of cream. Or one of pearl and cream. But not two creams and one pearl, etc.. It's only like two open spots? Anymore than two taken spots and the other doesn't exist? If that makes sense haha, I'm not the best at wording, sorry. That's correct.

And agouti is the gene that is portrayed as the "A" and variations of it that are A, the A+, and the At? The lowercase "a" is meaning it's not present? Correct. 'a' would mean that agouti is not expressed.
The E/e and E/E are saying black-based? So if the "A" was a/a it would just be black? Correct.
So the E/e and the A/a and the variations of Agouti that are there are bays? Yes. Any other than 'a' agouti on black (EE or Ee) would reveal agouti over black. Agouti is: AA AAt AA+ A+At and so on.
So a chesnut horse could cary forms or agouti but they won't be visible unless it's black based? It's still just "chestnut"? Correct.

Again, thank you so very much! I love learning about genetic combanations. Especially horses.

You're welcome.

I like genetics as well. Once you get the hang of it, reading color from a gene string becomes much easier on the site. Eventually, we'll have some sort of genetic testing, but since this is a 'realistically' based game, exactly what those genetic tests will be is still questionable.

Do you mind if I ask you another one?

[BlackOak2]

Do you mind if I ask you another one?

Dilutions are not my strong suit, just so you know. There's some of them I don't quite get right, but that's only because I don't work with them. Theory is easy enough though.

Ask away.

[AquatonianFarms]

Do you mind if I ask you another one?

Dilutions are not my strong suit, just so you know. There's some of them I don't quite get right, but that's only because I don't work with them. Theory is easy enough though.

Ask away.

Thank you! Well you just educated me in a whole lot of dilutions.. and genes haha.

So a double cream horse would always pass a cream gene?
I thought this horse was double cream. But both foals look normal black. Is smoky black normal black colored?
I may be wrong though.

Here's the mare http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1442963

One of the stallions I bred her to was http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1420064
and I got http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1443901

The other stallion was http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1442954
and I got http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1443058

So the mare I thought was a double cream. But I'm not really sure now. Unless they're smoky black, but I thought that would be lighter.

I think I got the links to the right horses.

[AquatonianFarms]

Dilutions are not my strong suit, just so you know. There's some of them I don't quite get right, but that's only because I don't work with them. Theory is easy enough though.

Ask away.

Thank you! Well you just educated me in a whole lot of dilutions.. and genes haha.

So a double cream horse would always pass a cream gene?
I thought this horse was double cream. But both foals look normal black. Is smoky black normal black colored?
I may be wrong though.

Here's the mare http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1442963

One of the stallions I bred her to was http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1420064
and I got http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1443901

The other stallion was http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1442954
and I got http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1443058

So the mare I thought was a double cream. But I'm not really sure now. Unless they're smoky black, but I thought that would be lighter.

I think I got the links to the right horses.

Ohhh she just birthed a not black foal http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1444293

[BlackOak2]

Thank you! Well you just educated me in a whole lot of dilutions.. and genes haha.

So a double cream horse would always pass a cream gene?
I thought this horse was double cream. But both foals look normal black. Is smoky black normal black colored?
I may be wrong though.

Here's the mare http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1442963

One of the stallions I bred her to was http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1420064
and I got http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1443901

The other stallion was http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1442954
and I got http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1443058

So the mare I thought was a double cream. But I'm not really sure now. Unless they're smoky black, but I thought that would be lighter.

I think I got the links to the right horses.

Black is the odd-man-out. To start with, when a single cream is offered to a black horse, it's suddenly now a hidden cream, not because it suddenly becomes a recessive gene, but because on the black coat, there is nothing to lighten, since black is a singular color (agouti may be described as black diluted with red and chestnut may be described as all the black gone, if that's easier to absorb). So the only way to see if it's a single cream (and not pearl) that was passed down to the horse is to look at the foal picture (newborn is best). A smoky black foal (single cream on black), will appear silvery or gray while a regular black will appear reddish or sun-burnt.

It does appear Moonstone is a double cream and not a cream & pearl, although there really isn't too much of a difference, cream & pearl does come out appearing just a little bit lighter than double cream, however, with that said, the only way to determine one from the other when working with unknown genetics, is for it to throw a pearl foal... that does suck a little.
Both of the foals she threw are smoky black, you can see that they're silvery in their newborn pictures. Meanwhile, as an example, Thor in his newborn picture, is that sun-burnt or reddish black color.

There is a good chance that Moonstones is a double black, but Shinin is definitely an Ee (one black and one red) because Rolly passed on one chestnut (and one flaxen).

So, the mare is a double cream and both of her offspring are smoky black because a single cream will hide on a black coat.

Now for your next foal. This one's easy. The sire has an agouti gene that he passed on. Thus it immediately makes a black foal an agouti foal. Since agouti hides beneath chestnut, the sire is carrying at least... hmm... I want to call the newborn filly a silver buckskin, which means that he's carrying at least one bay gene. Silver is in his line and so is dun. Although a bit harder to tell on dilution foals, since Im Dun Investing is not a dun carrier, neither is the new filly.

[AquatonianFarms]

Thank you! Well you just educated me in a whole lot of dilutions.. and genes haha.

So a double cream horse would always pass a cream gene?
I thought this horse was double cream. But both foals look normal black. Is smoky black normal black colored?
I may be wrong though.

Here's the mare http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1442963

One of the stallions I bred her to was http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1420064
and I got http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1443901

The other stallion was http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1442954
and I got http://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/1443058

So the mare I thought was a double cream. But I'm not really sure now. Unless they're smoky black, but I thought that would be lighter.

I think I got the links to the right horses.

Black is the odd-man-out. To start with, when a single cream is offered to a black horse, it's suddenly now a hidden cream, not because it suddenly becomes a recessive gene, but because on the black coat, there is nothing to lighten, since black is a singular color (agouti may be described as black diluted with red and chestnut may be described as all the black gone, if that's easier to absorb). So the only way to see if it's a single cream (and not pearl) that was passed down to the horse is to look at the foal picture (newborn is best). A smoky black foal (single cream on black), will appear silvery or gray while a regular black will appear reddish or sun-burnt.

It does appear Moonstone is a double cream and not a cream & pearl, although there really isn't too much of a difference, cream & pearl does come out appearing just a little bit lighter than double cream, however, with that said, the only way to determine one from the other when working with unknown genetics, is for it to throw a pearl foal... that does suck a little.
Both of the foals she threw are smoky black, you can see that they're silvery in their newborn pictures. Meanwhile, as an example, Thor in his newborn picture, is that sun-burnt or reddish black color.

There is a good chance that Moonstones is a double black, but Shinin is definitely an Ee (one black and one red) because Rolly passed on one chestnut (and one flaxen).

So, the mare is a double cream and both of her offspring are smoky black because a single cream will hide on a black coat.

Now for your next foal. This one's easy. The sire has an agouti gene that he passed on. Thus it immediately makes a black foal an agouti foal. Since agouti hides beneath chestnut, the sire is carrying at least... hmm... I want to call the newborn filly a silver buckskin, which means that he's carrying at least one bay gene. Silver is in his line and so is dun. Although a bit harder to tell on dilution foals, since Im Dun Investing is not a dun carrier, neither is the new filly.

Thank you!