I think this filly is a brown champagne snowflake with the 2p gene.

[JillJessie1997]

||EC||Ice Queen


Studying her sire, it is clear this is where she inherited her traits. He has only one adult picture taken of him, but I am going to take an [educated] guess that he has the 2p gene because looking through the filly's photos, as a baby, she also has pink skin and was born with grey/blue-ish eyes that are now dark as a yearling. She also shows, now, very obvious dark freckling around her muzzle and eyes, which clearly indicates she is champagne, as well as the scattered white hairs (snowflakes) throughout her coat. There is no way she inherited these genes from her dam as she is just a plain ol' mealy chestnut Belgian. So what do you think?

[BlackOak2]

Studying her sire, it is clear this is where she inherited her traits. He has only one adult picture taken of him, but I am going to take an [educated] guess that he has the 2p gene because looking through the filly's photos, as a baby, she also has pink skin and was born with grey/blue-ish eyes that are now dark as a yearling. She also shows, now, very obvious dark freckling around her muzzle and eyes, which clearly indicates she is champagne, as well as the scattered white hairs (snowflakes) throughout her coat. There is no way she inherited these genes from her dam as she is just a plain ol' mealy chestnut Belgian. So what do you think?

There is something a little different going on there.
There definitely looks like cream in the lineage and champagne. Champagne offers light eyes as a newborn. I'm not too sure on the pearl though. Like you, I think I see it as well.

That being said, if I were to look just at Ice Queen, I'd say classic champagne with pangare (mealy). Probably also with metallic. (and of course snowflakes)

However, I'm still learning my dilutes.

[JillJessie1997]

Studying her sire, it is clear this is where she inherited her traits. He has only one adult picture taken of him, but I am going to take an [educated] guess that he has the 2p gene because looking through the filly's photos, as a baby, she also has pink skin and was born with grey/blue-ish eyes that are now dark as a yearling. She also shows, now, very obvious dark freckling around her muzzle and eyes, which clearly indicates she is champagne, as well as the scattered white hairs (snowflakes) throughout her coat. There is no way she inherited these genes from her dam as she is just a plain ol' mealy chestnut Belgian. So what do you think?

There is something a little different going on there.
There definitely looks like cream in the lineage and champagne. Champagne offers light eyes as a newborn. I'm not too sure on the pearl though. Like you, I think I see it as well.

That being said, if I were to look just at Ice Queen, I'd say classic champagne with pangare (mealy). Probably also with metallic. (and of course snowflakes)

However, I'm still learning my dilutes.

Looking through the color guide, horses with two copies of the pearl gene are born with light grey/blue-ish eyes that darken with age (besides being diluted of course), while horses with the cream gene have blue eyes, which is why I chose the 2p gene over the cream gene.

This is a horse from the same guide listed under "brown champagne" which is identical to this filly's color aside from the lighter color under the belly. I looked up classic champagne horses on google (was having a hard time finding the picture of it on the guide) and I'm going to agree with you that she is that color. She still looks brown champagne to me too. Still don't see the pangare though

Still learning my colors, never mind my dilutes. Getting better all the time or so I think.

[BlackOak2]

So, now that I'm all done, I see you agree with what I see. But, I think this will also help so, I'm posting it anyway. (Besides, it helps me also, when I have to look things up and describe them, Totina's guide really is expanding, Wow!)

Looking through the color guide, horses with two copies of the pearl gene are born with light grey/blue-ish eyes that darken with age (besides being diluted of course), while horses with the cream gene have blue eyes, which is why I chose the 2p gene over the cream gene.

This is a horse from the same guide listed under "brown champagne" which is identical to this filly's color aside from the lighter color under the belly.
I do not see the pangare as it is not obvious to me. But again, my eyes are crap

Still learning my colors, never mind my dilutes. Getting better all the time or so I think.

As far as I know, the born-blue-eyed, but darken, only happens with champagne. If she carried her blue eyes into her adult coat (at 1 year), then she would have had to be a double cream or a cream and pearl. Double pearl does offer pink skin and dark eyes, but so does champagne. A big difference between champagne and double pearl is that double pearl doesn't offer baby blues. So that's where I'm coming from for the champagne and not double cream or not cream and pearl. I do not believe she's a double pearl carrier because I think her color would be considerably lightened. The double pearl pictures on either black or brown are on base without dilutes (so about as close to a true color as perhaps it can be):



If the champagne gene is included in that black or brown combination with a double pearl, the coat would be considerably lighter. Pearl lightens a coat and if the coat is already light, it still lightens it further. Cream does the same, turning red coats yellow (or gold) and black and brown coats to a more sandy-like color or a washed-out black color (when expressed, since a single cream on black doesn't offer anything for an adult).

This is the cream and champagne on black, which offers a much lighter coat and a much lighter mane.


And this one is a cream and champagne on brown, offering very similar colors to the cream and champagne on black, except you have a tarnishing along the stomach line and nose.


I don't know where some double pearl and champagne combos are, or I'd offer examples of them as well, but the double pearl would lighten the coats, similar to the single cream.
Though I'm unsure about whether Ice Queen does offer either of these, I would have to say no, because in my opinion, there just isn't enough lightness to include another dilution gene beyond the champagne.

I think what you're seeing as 'brown' is what I'm seeing as pangare. If you look at her flank, at the little bit of skin that hangs right in front of the knee, I've noticed that pangare will lighten, if only that spot, and that's the giveaway for the difference between brown and pangare. Brown will always offer the same tone of color from that flank, through the stomach and on the nose (regardless of how little or much brown expression there is, it's always the same color). Pangare (or mealy) will always offer a change in color on that spot of the flank if it's present.



But I could be wrong, certainly on the pangare, and also on the black base versus brown base. I have a couple champagne horses that are on both and may or may not offer dun and also pangare myself (really difficult to see sometimes!).

[JillJessie1997]

As far as I know, the born-blue-eyed, but darken, only happens with champagne. If she carried her blue eyes into her adult coat (at 1 year), then she would have had to be a double cream or a cream and pearl. Double pearl does offer pink skin and dark eyes, but so does champagne. A big difference between champagne and double pearl is that double pearl doesn't offer baby blues. So that's where I'm coming from for the champagne and not double cream or not cream and pearl. I do not believe she's a double pearl carrier because I think her color would be considerably lightened. The double pearl pictures on either black or brown are on base without dilutes (so about as close to a true color as perhaps it can be):



If the champagne gene is included in that black or brown combination with a double pearl, the coat would be considerably lighter. Pearl lightens a coat and if the coat is already light, it still lightens it further. Cream does the same, turning red coats yellow (or gold) and black and brown coats to a more sandy-like color or a washed-out black color (when expressed, since a single cream on black doesn't offer anything for an adult).

This is the cream and champagne on black, which offers a much lighter coat and a much lighter mane.


And this one is a cream and champagne on brown, offering very similar colors to the cream and champagne on black, except you have a tarnishing along the stomach line and nose.


I don't know where some double pearl and champagne combos are, or I'd offer examples of them as well, but the double pearl would lighten the coats, similar to the single cream.
Though I'm unsure about whether Ice Queen does offer either of these, I would have to say no, because in my opinion, there just isn't enough lightness to include another dilution gene beyond the champagne.

I think what you're seeing as 'brown' is what I'm seeing as pangare. If you look at her flank, at the little bit of skin that hangs right in front of the knee, I've noticed that pangare will lighten, if only that spot, and that's the giveaway for the difference between brown and pangare. Brown will always offer the same tone of color from that flank, through the stomach and on the nose (regardless of how little or much brown expression there is, it's always the same color). Pangare (or mealy) will always offer a change in color on that spot of the flank if it's present.



But I could be wrong, certainly on the pangare, and also on the black base versus brown base. I have a couple champagne horses that are on both and may or may not offer dun and also pangare myself (really difficult to see sometimes!).

Holy crap, thanks for the information! I literally just wrote everything down into my notepad for future reference. I also looked where you think you see pangare, and honestly, it looks the same color as the rest of her coat to me.
After reading this I will agree she doesn't have the pearl gene...I also don't think she has a cream gene either....at least not expressed anyway (her father maybe, since his coat is so light).

I also found the picture of the classic champagne coat in Totina's guide and compared it to the brown champagne coat I think this filly has....the classic champagne seems a little shade too dark still while the brown champagne is the exact right shade (aside from the pangare, unless that's what the brown champagne coat is suppose to look like, which in that case I'll put Ice Queen down as a classic champagne).

[BlackOak2]

Holy crap, thanks for the information! I literally just wrote everything down into my notepad for future reference. I also looked where you think you see pangare, and honestly, it looks the same color as the rest of her coat to me.
After reading this I will agree she doesn't have the pearl gene...I also don't think she has a cream gene either....at least not expressed anyway (her father maybe, since his coat is so light).

I also found the picture of the classic champagne coat in Totina's guide and compared it to the brown champagne coat I think this filly has....the classic champagne seems a little shade too dark still while the brown champagne is the exact right shade (aside from the pangare, unless that's what the brown champagne coat is suppose to look like, which in that case I'll put Ice Queen down as a classic champagne).

Don't forget about the differences in shade in the horse's coat. Even without sooty, the shade can vary quite drastically even on the base colors (black really, aside).
For instance, two silver wild bay duns:



So to identify some colors, certain markers must be looked for. Base chestnut is a red through the coat and the points, if there are black points (ears, legs, nose) then it marks a bay or wild bay, and if there is a red nose and stomach with black points then it marks a brown. The other genes have similar markers to help identify them as well.

But nothing is exact and the only way to be certain with some of these horses perhaps is to wait until gene testing comes into the game.

Try breeding to a black or chestnut. If the foal is a brown base, than your horse must carry the brown agouti gene, if it only throws chestnut and black foals, then it probably is black base.
Recessive to dominant base colors: Chestnut; Black; Brown; Bay; Wild Bay.
Meaning that wild bay could hide bay, brown, black or chestnut genes, but a brown can only potentially hide black and chestnut genes.

[Raikit]

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Just throwing in my two-cents here because basically my entire herd of Vlad Heavy Drafts is made up of variations and sable and classic champagne. (And the rest of my herd that isn't VHDs is pearls. XD)

The filly in question is a classic champagne with snowflakes and varnish. Her baby picture makes it quite easy to tell. Her foal coat is much too dark for a sable champagne. If she were sable she would have looked like this (minus the roan):



Another sable (with roan) at 6 months:



Unfortunately I do not yet have any brown double-pearl champagnes, but here is classic champagne pearl (black + 2x pearl + champagne:



And here is a sable cream pearl (brown + cream + pearl + champagne):



And then at one year:



This filly also does not have mealy/pangare. Pangare does not affect black pigment so it is not visible on black-based horses. Any light coloration on this mares flanks/muzzle/etc is because of shading on the image, and a little bit because of her varnish.

[JillJessie1997]

""

""

Just throwing in my two-cents here because basically my entire herd of Vlad Heavy Drafts is made up of variations and sable and classic champagne. (And the rest of my herd that isn't VHDs is pearls. XD)

The filly in question is a classic champagne with snowflakes and varnish. Her baby picture makes it quite easy to tell. Her foal coat is much too dark for a sable champagne. If she were sable she would have looked like this (minus the roan):



Another sable (with roan) at 6 months:



Unfortunately I do not yet have any brown double-pearl champagnes, but here is classic champagne pearl (black + 2x pearl + champagne:



And here is a sable cream pearl (brown + cream + pearl + champagne):



And then at one year:



This filly also does not have mealy/pangare. Pangare does not affect black pigment so it is not visible on black-based horses. Any light coloration on this mares flanks/muzzle/etc is because of shading on the image, and a little bit because of her varnish.

Thank you for the info! I'm still learning the dilutes and a lot of them look the same to me I also knew pangare didn't appear on black base coats but it totally slipped my mind during this topic. What is the difference between all the different dilutes really? Also, how do you tell if a horse has varnish? xD

[Raikit]

Thank you for the info! I'm still learning the dilutes and a lot of them look the same to me I also knew pangare didn't appear on black base coats but it totally slipped my mind during this topic. What is the difference between all the different dilutes really? Also, how do you tell if a horse has varnish? xD

The difference is the effect they have on the coat. Here's a run-down of what I know:

Cream - Incomplete dominant. One copy turns red into yellow and has little effect on black. Two copies turn red into pale cream and black into light brown and also causes blue eyes. Cream on a red horse will also cause a white mane and tail.

Champagne - Dominant. Causes freckled skin around the eyes, muzzle, and genitals. Red becomes gold and black becomes very dark brown. When combined with one cream yellow becomes light gold and dark brown becomes light gray. When combined with two creams all colors become very light gray, almost white.

Pearl - Recessive, co-dominant with cream. One pearl will not show up by itself. Two pearls cause pink skin, red pigment will become yellow, and black pigment will be dark brown. One pearl with one cream will cause pink skin and blue eyes, red will become pale yellow/cream and black will become brown.



As for varnish - this is caused by the Lp gene. If the horse has Lp (we can see that your filly does because of her snowflakes), it will varnish. It generally looks like the horse is turning white/gray as it ages.

[JillJessie1997]

Thank you for the info! I'm still learning the dilutes and a lot of them look the same to me I also knew pangare didn't appear on black base coats but it totally slipped my mind during this topic. What is the difference between all the different dilutes really? Also, how do you tell if a horse has varnish? xD

The difference is the effect they have on the coat. Here's a run-down of what I know:

Cream - Incomplete dominant. One copy turns red into yellow and has little effect on black. Two copies turn red into pale cream and black into light brown and also causes blue eyes. Cream on a red horse will also cause a white mane and tail.

Champagne - Dominant. Causes freckled skin around the eyes, muzzle, and genitals. Red becomes gold and black becomes very dark brown. When combined with one cream yellow becomes light gold and dark brown becomes light gray. When combined with two creams all colors become very light gray, almost white.

Pearl - Recessive, co-dominant with cream. One pearl will not show up by itself. Two pearls cause pink skin, red pigment will become yellow, and black pigment will be dark brown. One pearl with one cream will cause pink skin and blue eyes, red will become pale yellow/cream and black will become brown.



As for varnish - this is caused by the Lp gene. If the horse has Lp (we can see that your filly does because of her snowflakes), it will varnish. It generally looks like the horse is turning white/gray as it ages.

I just copy and pasted this into a word document

||EC|| Carribean Sky

So this guy definitely has a cream gene, as his coat has a lighter yellow effect to it. I have it listed as palomino (his mom is a palomino blanket with the yellow darker than his, his dead a mealy chestnut extended blanket), I know there are lighter shades of palomino but I forgot their technical terms. Would you agree with this? Also, is the marking on his rump known as a semi blanket? I know if it reaches to the shoulder it is extended.

I have a whole different topic for this girl's color but since you're right here, I figured I'll ask you
||EC|| Cream Puff

I think she is champagne + two creams based on what you wrote (and Totina's guide). She has pale freckling around her muzzle/eyes and if you look at her sire he is nearly white also with the same freckling on the face. The player has the sire listed as a smoky cream champagne (I know the champagne is true, but I'm not yet good with the creams), and after looking at the color guide under smoky cream, I want to say that's their base color, but I'm not entirely sure