Plume? (and flaxen?)

[Rose90067]

I've got this colt, and was just wondering if he looks like he's got plume?
To me, his feathers kind of look like plume, but less grey than other plume I've seen. His mane also has this almost chocolatey color as opposed to black.

[Rose90067]

I was also wondering what people like to call it when a chestnut horse LOOKS flaxen but is not genetically flaxen. I've got this mare, who has the silver gene but no flaxen gene.

[Silverine]

No plume that I can see on the first one.

The second is definitely flaxen. Why do you say she isn't? Her mother is flaxen, and it's a recessive gene so it's entirely possible that her sire is hiding it. Silver won't show up on red, so there's no way to know if she actually has that or not. Her granddam on her mother's side had it, but her mother is red so all we know is that the mother has a 50% chance of carrying it, making it even less certain for the horse in question.

[Rose90067]

No plume that I can see on the first one.

The second is definitely flaxen. Why do you say she isn't? Her mother is flaxen, and it's a recessive gene so it's entirely possible that her sire is hiding it. Silver won't show up on red, so there's no way to know if she actually has that or not. Her granddam on her mother's side had it, but her mother is red so all we know is that the mother has a 50% chance of carrying it, making it even less certain for the horse in question.

I actually did not think about the stud having the recessive gene! Which is why I felt like it had to be something else, lol.

Still seems a bit weird to me though, as I have bred the stallion out, and his line is intensely inbred. This is the first time flaxen has shown up in any degree, and its coincidental timing since I had just introduced a pool of some different genetics to that line . I usually keep a close eye on what genes I am introducing and keep them separate since its an entirely AC project, so its typically easy to keep track of that stuff. The OG NAB mare that I bred him to was just a silver dapple.

I think what had me mostly confused though, was how easy and consistent the flaxen was breeding out in comparison to how its been for me in the past. Even with non flaxen studs, both mares have easily produced flaxen looking foals. The mares mom actually produced all flaxen looking foals, though the others were colts that I rehomed since I need fillies for the project I was working on. I've also bred the warlander stud (as well as a chestnut that is related to him) to a bunch of flaxen mares that I know for sure are genetically flaxen and not plume (the OG AC horses behind their genetics were flaxen arabs). None of these horses turned out flaxen, but if I bred the foals together, they would produce flaxen expression. These two lines have not touched, so flaxen did not get mixed in that way.


But anyways, thanks for the help! I appreciate it, because I genuinely don't think my brain would have ever picked up the possibility of the stud having a copy of the gene. I was running in circles tryna figure out what it could have been, though plume had crossed my mind. That would be some pretty crazy expression for the plume though, so I decided against it. I also suck at identifying plume lol


I did just breed her to a different stallion off the market, and the foal also turned up with this color. I suppose he could also have the recessive trait, but the consistency is still strange to me. Update: I've not bred her to several different market studs, and have gotten many of these flaxen looking horses.

[Silverine]

That's how recessive genes work, though. You go along forever not knowing they're there, and then all of a sudden they pop up to say "hi."

And yes, that is also flaxen. General rule - gray mane/tail is silver, pink or gold is flaxen.

And the mare also did have one foal that wasn't flaxen.

[Midway90067]

I bred out one of the mares colts, and he produced nearly 100% of this color, with non-flaxen adoption center horses. The only horse he did not produce any sort of flaxen with was the Flaxen Arab mare I bred him to. I know flaxen is recessive, which is why I believe this horse has some other gene giving a similar effect.
The likely hood of a recessive trait having this high of a reproduction rate with horses, even if they are heterozygous for a recessive trait (which with my sample size, its unlikely that they ALL carry the recessive gene), is highly unlikely. And if it was true flaxen, then two flaxen horses should theoretically have a 100% reproduction rate of the color.
Whatever it is seems to me to be a heterozygous dominant trait. Of course I could be wrong, but I want to put more time into it, since its really a strange thing to me.

This is the stud https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/4276619
And One of his sons https://www.horseworldonline.net/horse/profile/4277664


While I've been experimenting with this line, I've also noticed a couple of things"

-Age does not seem to affect the expression of the mane color, at least not heavily.
-When the horses do have sooty, the color of the mane and tail is not darkened significantly, but in some of the horses, the color of the mane/tail is shifted to a different more gray hue
[horse]

[BlackOak2]

I bred out one of the mares colts, and he produced nearly 100% of this color, with non-flaxen adoption center horses. The only horse he did not produce any sort of flaxen with was the Flaxen Arab mare I bred him to. I know flaxen is recessive, which is why I believe this horse has some other gene giving a similar effect.
The likely hood of a recessive trait having this high of a reproduction rate with horses, even if they are heterozygous for a recessive trait (which with my sample size, its unlikely that they ALL carry the recessive gene), is highly unlikely. And if it was true flaxen, then two flaxen horses should theoretically have a 100% reproduction rate of the color.
Whatever it is seems to me to be a heterozygous dominant trait. Of course I could be wrong, but I want to put more time into it, since its really a strange thing to me.


While I've been experimenting with this line, I've also noticed a couple of things"

-Age does not seem to affect the expression of the mane color, at least not heavily.
-When the horses do have sooty, the color of the mane and tail is not darkened significantly, but in some of the horses, the color of the mane/tail is shifted to a different more gray hue

That does appear odd. I wonder if your arab mare was a glitch horse?? Even so, then the mane should've still shown the real color. I think this would be a bug and since it appears something happened that really shouldn't have (and with all the recent changes), really should be checked out by admin.

...

...

Something is weird with this.

We have two parents that both certainly, definitely appear to be flaxen and that have produced a foal that certainly definitely appear to be without flaxen. Problem is, however, only the stallion is still alive. But still, you should be alerted to it so that maybe it can be looked into.

Stallion

Mare

Foal


***

Flaxen is indeed recessive and two flaxen chestnuts should always produce a flaxen foal. Although there is a lot of variation to our flaxens and flaxens can be nearly nonexistent to even a gray-sooty color, the nearly-non-existent still has a variation in the mane and tail, differently from the body color, especially in the foal image. Your foal does not appear to have such a change, so this would be something admin would need to check closer. Unfortunate two of them are no longer with us. But it happens.

[larissar]

Well, I can only look into the stallions genetics since as you mentioned two of the horses are passed on, but from what little I can see there, I don't believe we have any flaxen bugs.

So, the real question is then, how much do you want me to spoil some hidden effects, or do you want to continue trying to breed these horses and figure out the mystery yourselves

[Totina]

As far as I know there is actually a kind of flaxen variation that has pretty much the same color as the regular chestnut coat. I remember this old contest from years back:
viewtopic.php?t=3012

The color of the mane and tail is only visibly lighter on a darker chestnut coat. I have a couple of these "hidden flaxen" in my leopard project where almost all of my chestnut leopards have flaxen but it's barely visible on most of them.

[Midway90067]

ooo perhaps there is some hidden flaxen going on?

Honestly though, if anyone is interested in breeding this stud out further, I can put him and/or his son up for people to play around with, just let me know. I am currently working on another breed project, so util I get that project rolling, I don't have a ton of extra space to experiment for now (though I really want to, I am absolutely fascinated by genetics). I apologize for all of the deceased foals/horses in this line as well lol, I forgot to move them over to my freezer while I was working with other projects.