Tips Appreciated ^^

[Gabby_Woodlark]

I'm tired of guessing my horses' coat colors and trying to read the outdated color guides. Would anybody be willing to give me some starter tips?

[BlackOak2]

I'm tired of guessing my horses' coat colors and trying to read the outdated color guides. Would anybody be willing to give me some starter tips?

First, you posted twice, about ten minutes apart: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=39963

Second. You need to start with defining the base color. Is it black? or is it red?
Once you've defined that, it will wipe away a good deal of possible coat color options.
Your basic question will be, does it have 'points'? or not?
Points will be color shifts at the ears, nose, lower legs and flank/stomach. These will define if it's NOT red based (therefore black based and agouti) or if it IS red based or also black.

A pair of black horses will only ever pop a black foal OR a red foal. So this will immediately check off that it cannot be an agouti.

A pair of red horses will ONLY produce another red-based foal.

And finally, if you get into triple dilutes, you had best already defined those parents. It will be easiest if you have the basic code already figured out. It will quite efficiently narrow your color range.

Here are some other raw notes, direct from my personal color-notes kept offline.

Chestnut
indicated by e
double chestnut only (e/e)
can hide agouti or even double agouti
when paired with a black, any agouti foals reveals the agouti gene it carries
can only throw chestnuts with chestnuts

Black
indicated by E
black can throw only black or red, not agouti (E/e or E/E)
black is always a/a for agouti (no agouti)
when a suspect double black is paired with a chestnut, it should always only through black or agouti, never chestnut
when a black throws an agouti, it came from the other horse
double blacks can throw agouti with chestnuts which means the agouti is on the chestnut
double blacks will never throw chestnuts

Agouti (black/brown/bay)
agouti is always on black or double black only
agouti can only have one red or two black genes
Agouti and red agouti can offer an agouti, a black or a chestnut with a chestnut horse
Agouti and red if agouti offers a black with a chestnut horse, it means it has only one agouti gene
Agouti and red if agouti offers a chestnut with a chestnut horse, it means it has only one black gene
Agouti and red if agouti offers agouti with a chestnut and it's dominant over the shown agouti, this agouti came from the other horse
Agouti and black if agouti offers red with a black horse, then they both carry a single chestnut gene
Agouti and black if agouti offers black with a black horse, it means it has only one agouti gene
Agouti and black single agouti with double black will only offer a single agouti OR a black, never chestnut
Agouti and black a double agouti with a double black will always produce agouti (with single or double black)
Agouti and black agouti double black with a double black will always produce double blacks and agouti double blacks

Wild Bay
indicated by A+
can have bay or brown in conjunction
wild bay can have bay or brown offspring
differs from bay by only having black fetlocks, not past the ankle
I wonder if the combination of bay and wild bay genes offers a middling of the black legs, instead of really high versus really low

Bay
indicated by A
can have brown in conjunction
bay can have brown offspring But Not wild bay

Brown
indicated by At
brown can not have bay or wild bay offspring


Countershading & Coat Affects

Graying
indicated by G
dominant arabians only
has over 40 'helper genes'
controls rate of graying, dappling, stages & how quickly

Dun
indicated by D
dominant

Roan
indicated by Rn
dominant

Silver
indicated by Z
dominant

Flaxen
indicated by f
recessive

Pangare
indicated by P
dominant seems to offer a lighter color right on the flank

Sooty
indicated by Sty
dominant 4 master switch genes found in 3 breeds and very rarely in 4 other breeds
4 expression genes (area of coverage), found in 3 breeds and rarely in 4 others
4 strength genes found 'in most breeds to varying degrees'
1 progression gene, fastest found in 5 breeds, but slowest found in all breeds

Sooty With Dapples
master switch in only one breed
dominant
3 strength genes also in just that one master switch breed
must have both sooty and dapples to appear
master switch breed rarely appears sooty & 1 in 4 horses will carry the gene.

Metallic
indicated by Sh
incomplete dominant

Eye Genes

Tiger Eye
indicated by Tg
co-recessive with champagne

Dilutions

Cream
indicated by Cr/n
dominant seems to turn the coat, or parts of the coat yellow or a tannish-yellow
incomplete recessive on black, which makes it look a bit like a silver dapple (no dapples), or even a silver grullo
shows dark skin and dark eyes with one gene
shows pink skin and blue eyes with two genes
pearl a single cream cannothave pearl
2 Creams seems to turn chestnut and bay coats a white-yellow, or a 'true cream' color
black and brown coats turn a 'desert brown' color, dull pale goldish
all manes are light, not white or silver, but not black or dark
shows pink skin and blue eyes
not champagne if the horse is not champagne and the eyes are not clearly dark, the horse is either double cream or pearl and cream

2 Pearls
indicated by pr/n
resessive shares locus with cream
pearl can be mistaken for double cream, except pearl offers darker manes and dark eyes
on chestnut, looks the same as 2 creams on chestnut, except shows pink skin with dark eyes, not blue eyes
two single creams a single or double pearl can never come from two single creams
single cream & solid a double pearl can never come from a single cream regardless of the other color
two solids can produce a double pearl, each parent is single pearl carrier
one solid & double dilute can produce a double pearl, each parent is single pearl carrier
two double dilutes can produce a double pearl, each parent is single pearl carrier

Cream/Pearl
essentially double cream, but seems to look like lighter versions

Champagne
indicated by Ch
dominant always offers freckles
offers gold-colored coats to chestnut and bay
offers a washed out brown/gray color to blacks and browns
one or two copies of this gene does not offer a change in appearance

Cream/Champagne
always offers freckles and has a lighter mane, not white or silver and not dark or black
on black, offers a very pale 'gray' coloration, with darker mane and tail than coat
on brown, still offers the classic brown areas around stomach, with darker mane and tail than coat
chestnut appears with a lighter mane and tail than the coat
bay appears with the darker mane and tail then coat
always has dark eyes with pink skin

Double Cream/Champagne
always has freckles, though they can be very pale
always has blue eyes
look like pale versions of single cream/champagne horses
has much lighter manes and tails that look gray or almost whitish in color

Tri-Dilutes
carry one cream and one pearl, with one or two champagne genes
always have light colored or light blue eyes and pale freckles
look very similar to double cream/champagne horses
may only distiguish these through knowing what genes the parents carry

Dappling
Dappling is caused by sooty, by graying and by silver on a black coat only

Appaloosa

Appaloosa Explanation
can carry PATN and not show (no Lp), can have Lp but not show PATN I wonder if it's the black belgians that carry the agouti extension
Lp leopard complex
1 gene/2 alleles (LpLp)
known as the on/off gene and is dominant
two Lp genes produces a 'fewspot' appaloosa pattern, in this game it appears as a dusted edge, instead of solid edge and offers minaturized spots

PATN Pattern
26 genes/2 to 4 alleles (I assume 2 to 4 alleles each, but I wonder if it's PATN 1 through PATN 26? Or of it's genes for each 'part' of the body)
as stated: 'PATN1 causes the most white to appear on the body and is hidden in two breeds' Example PATN1 snowflake Doubled blanket with snowflakes
maybe there is more than one PATN1 types? I can't believe, that with what we know, Larissa didn't put a full leopard PATN1 somewhere in the game. PATN2 blanket Doubled blanket with less spots?

works as dominant
I wonder if one of these, PATN is snowflake incomplete dominant, but when inherits a second of the same PATN,
it offers a blanket instead, but… some still show snowflakes?
on web, PATN2 is responsible for butt blankets that can extend to the shoulder, stomach but not legs
on the web, doubled PATN2 offers the same blanket, but with few to no spots, it also says that PATN2 is for 'any other pattern that is not PATN1'
Tarpan does not carry PATN1 (large white area)
Snowflake for ease of use, I will name this gene Sn1 and Sn2
2 genes/3 to 100 alleles
is snowflake completely separate from PATN? As stated 'snowflake density: all breeds are capable of developing snowflake spots…'
as stated: 'one breed carries high density and one breed carries extreme density' which could mean that one of the genes is an incomplete dominant
what do I know? I know that two snowflake parents can produce a blanket but also has snowflakes, which means what? They both have Lp, they both have snowflake, but neither carries the PATN1 gene. So, the snowflake gene can be an incomplete dominant, meaning two creates blankets, but then any snowflake carrier will produce blankets 50% when crossed with other snowflake carriers. So it is not an incomplete dominant for blankets. which means what? Since this has two genes, that means one is strictly snowflake and the other is snowflake and blanket. So now there is a new question. Can the snowflake blanket spread if only bred to other snowflake blankets where the snowflake spreads?



assuming above, then I will say that Sn1 is for snowflake only and Sn2 is incomplete dominant for snowflake and pattern
Spot Size for ease of use, I will name this gene Sp1 and Sp2(a & b)
2 genes/4 alleles & 2 alleles
4 different sizes
sizes are tiny, normal, medium and large
two breeds carry medium and large size
belgian offers medium
forest horse offers large
Sp1 offers spots, when doubled Sp1 offers two separate sized spots
I think that there is also an incomplete dominant at work, but I'm not sure how that works out or what it offers, or co-dominant.
Sp2 controls size, as simple on/off switches with dominant/recessive at work; one allele will offer one size, two offers the second size, three offers the third size and four offers the fourth size. I do not know which is recessive to which, but I assume that normal size is dominant and that this only comes into play when there is a double Sp1.


all horses that carry PATN must also carry Sp1 and Sp2
Spot Density 1 gene/100 alleles
I am assuming that the 100 alleles is split between areas and denseness, meaning you can have areas of more dense versus less
Varnish Roan 20 genes with 2 to 100 alleles each
All horses will varnish roan, but expressions can be subtle to extreme
Bronzing 1 gene with 100 alleles
black-based horses can appear chestnut in color

[Gabby_Woodlark]

I'm tired of guessing my horses' coat colors and trying to read the outdated color guides. Would anybody be willing to give me some starter tips?

First, you posted twice, about ten minutes apart: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=39963

Second. You need to start with defining the base color. Is it black? or is it red?
Once you've defined that, it will wipe away a good deal of possible coat color options.
Your basic question will be, does it have 'points'? or not?
Points will be color shifts at the ears, nose, lower legs and flank/stomach. These will define if it's NOT red based (therefore black based and agouti) or if it IS red based or also black.

A pair of black horses will only ever pop a black foal OR a red foal. So this will immediately check off that it cannot be an agouti.

A pair of red horses will ONLY produce another red-based foal.

And finally, if you get into triple dilutes, you had best already defined those parents. It will be easiest if you have the basic code already figured out. It will quite efficiently narrow your color range.

Here are some other raw notes, direct from my personal color-notes kept offline.

Chestnut
indicated by e
double chestnut only (e/e)
can hide agouti or even double agouti
when paired with a black, any agouti foals reveals the agouti gene it carries
can only throw chestnuts with chestnuts

Black
indicated by E
black can throw only black or red, not agouti (E/e or E/E)
black is always a/a for agouti (no agouti)
when a suspect double black is paired with a chestnut, it should always only through black or agouti, never chestnut
when a black throws an agouti, it came from the other horse
double blacks can throw agouti with chestnuts which means the agouti is on the chestnut
double blacks will never throw chestnuts

Agouti (black/brown/bay)
agouti is always on black or double black only
agouti can only have one red or two black genes
Agouti and red agouti can offer an agouti, a black or a chestnut with a chestnut horse
Agouti and red if agouti offers a black with a chestnut horse, it means it has only one agouti gene
Agouti and red if agouti offers a chestnut with a chestnut horse, it means it has only one black gene
Agouti and red if agouti offers agouti with a chestnut and it's dominant over the shown agouti, this agouti came from the other horse
Agouti and black if agouti offers red with a black horse, then they both carry a single chestnut gene
Agouti and black if agouti offers black with a black horse, it means it has only one agouti gene
Agouti and black single agouti with double black will only offer a single agouti OR a black, never chestnut
Agouti and black a double agouti with a double black will always produce agouti (with single or double black)
Agouti and black agouti double black with a double black will always produce double blacks and agouti double blacks

Wild Bay
indicated by A+
can have bay or brown in conjunction
wild bay can have bay or brown offspring
differs from bay by only having black fetlocks, not past the ankle
I wonder if the combination of bay and wild bay genes offers a middling of the black legs, instead of really high versus really low

Bay
indicated by A
can have brown in conjunction
bay can have brown offspring But Not wild bay

Brown
indicated by At
brown can not have bay or wild bay offspring


Countershading & Coat Affects

Graying
indicated by G
dominant arabians only
has over 40 'helper genes'
controls rate of graying, dappling, stages & how quickly

Dun
indicated by D
dominant

Roan
indicated by Rn
dominant

Silver
indicated by Z
dominant

Flaxen
indicated by f
recessive

Pangare
indicated by P
dominant seems to offer a lighter color right on the flank

Sooty
indicated by Sty
dominant 4 master switch genes found in 3 breeds and very rarely in 4 other breeds
4 expression genes (area of coverage), found in 3 breeds and rarely in 4 others
4 strength genes found 'in most breeds to varying degrees'
1 progression gene, fastest found in 5 breeds, but slowest found in all breeds

Sooty With Dapples
master switch in only one breed
dominant
3 strength genes also in just that one master switch breed
must have both sooty and dapples to appear
master switch breed rarely appears sooty & 1 in 4 horses will carry the gene.

Metallic
indicated by Sh
incomplete dominant

Eye Genes

Tiger Eye
indicated by Tg
co-recessive with champagne

Dilutions

Cream
indicated by Cr/n
dominant seems to turn the coat, or parts of the coat yellow or a tannish-yellow
incomplete recessive on black, which makes it look a bit like a silver dapple (no dapples), or even a silver grullo
shows dark skin and dark eyes with one gene
shows pink skin and blue eyes with two genes
pearl a single cream cannothave pearl
2 Creams seems to turn chestnut and bay coats a white-yellow, or a 'true cream' color
black and brown coats turn a 'desert brown' color, dull pale goldish
all manes are light, not white or silver, but not black or dark
shows pink skin and blue eyes
not champagne if the horse is not champagne and the eyes are not clearly dark, the horse is either double cream or pearl and cream

2 Pearls
indicated by pr/n
resessive shares locus with cream
pearl can be mistaken for double cream, except pearl offers darker manes and dark eyes
on chestnut, looks the same as 2 creams on chestnut, except shows pink skin with dark eyes, not blue eyes
two single creams a single or double pearl can never come from two single creams
single cream & solid a double pearl can never come from a single cream regardless of the other color
two solids can produce a double pearl, each parent is single pearl carrier
one solid & double dilute can produce a double pearl, each parent is single pearl carrier
two double dilutes can produce a double pearl, each parent is single pearl carrier

Cream/Pearl
essentially double cream, but seems to look like lighter versions

Champagne
indicated by Ch
dominant always offers freckles
offers gold-colored coats to chestnut and bay
offers a washed out brown/gray color to blacks and browns
one or two copies of this gene does not offer a change in appearance

Cream/Champagne
always offers freckles and has a lighter mane, not white or silver and not dark or black
on black, offers a very pale 'gray' coloration, with darker mane and tail than coat
on brown, still offers the classic brown areas around stomach, with darker mane and tail than coat
chestnut appears with a lighter mane and tail than the coat
bay appears with the darker mane and tail then coat
always has dark eyes with pink skin

Double Cream/Champagne
always has freckles, though they can be very pale
always has blue eyes
look like pale versions of single cream/champagne horses
has much lighter manes and tails that look gray or almost whitish in color

Tri-Dilutes
carry one cream and one pearl, with one or two champagne genes
always have light colored or light blue eyes and pale freckles
look very similar to double cream/champagne horses
may only distiguish these through knowing what genes the parents carry

Dappling
Dappling is caused by sooty, by graying and by silver on a black coat only

Appaloosa

Appaloosa Explanation
can carry PATN and not show (no Lp), can have Lp but not show PATN I wonder if it's the black belgians that carry the agouti extension
Lp leopard complex
1 gene/2 alleles (LpLp)
known as the on/off gene and is dominant
two Lp genes produces a 'fewspot' appaloosa pattern, in this game it appears as a dusted edge, instead of solid edge and offers minaturized spots

PATN Pattern
26 genes/2 to 4 alleles (I assume 2 to 4 alleles each, but I wonder if it's PATN 1 through PATN 26? Or of it's genes for each 'part' of the body)
as stated: 'PATN1 causes the most white to appear on the body and is hidden in two breeds' Example PATN1 snowflake Doubled blanket with snowflakes
maybe there is more than one PATN1 types? I can't believe, that with what we know, Larissa didn't put a full leopard PATN1 somewhere in the game. PATN2 blanket Doubled blanket with less spots?

works as dominant
I wonder if one of these, PATN is snowflake incomplete dominant, but when inherits a second of the same PATN,
it offers a blanket instead, but… some still show snowflakes?
on web, PATN2 is responsible for butt blankets that can extend to the shoulder, stomach but not legs
on the web, doubled PATN2 offers the same blanket, but with few to no spots, it also says that PATN2 is for 'any other pattern that is not PATN1'
Tarpan does not carry PATN1 (large white area)
Snowflake for ease of use, I will name this gene Sn1 and Sn2
2 genes/3 to 100 alleles
is snowflake completely separate from PATN? As stated 'snowflake density: all breeds are capable of developing snowflake spots…'
as stated: 'one breed carries high density and one breed carries extreme density' which could mean that one of the genes is an incomplete dominant
what do I know? I know that two snowflake parents can produce a blanket but also has snowflakes, which means what? They both have Lp, they both have snowflake, but neither carries the PATN1 gene. So, the snowflake gene can be an incomplete dominant, meaning two creates blankets, but then any snowflake carrier will produce blankets 50% when crossed with other snowflake carriers. So it is not an incomplete dominant for blankets. which means what? Since this has two genes, that means one is strictly snowflake and the other is snowflake and blanket. So now there is a new question. Can the snowflake blanket spread if only bred to other snowflake blankets where the snowflake spreads?



assuming above, then I will say that Sn1 is for snowflake only and Sn2 is incomplete dominant for snowflake and pattern
Spot Size for ease of use, I will name this gene Sp1 and Sp2(a & b)
2 genes/4 alleles & 2 alleles
4 different sizes
sizes are tiny, normal, medium and large
two breeds carry medium and large size
belgian offers medium
forest horse offers large
Sp1 offers spots, when doubled Sp1 offers two separate sized spots
I think that there is also an incomplete dominant at work, but I'm not sure how that works out or what it offers, or co-dominant.
Sp2 controls size, as simple on/off switches with dominant/recessive at work; one allele will offer one size, two offers the second size, three offers the third size and four offers the fourth size. I do not know which is recessive to which, but I assume that normal size is dominant and that this only comes into play when there is a double Sp1.


all horses that carry PATN must also carry Sp1 and Sp2
Spot Density 1 gene/100 alleles
I am assuming that the 100 alleles is split between areas and denseness, meaning you can have areas of more dense versus less
Varnish Roan 20 genes with 2 to 100 alleles each
All horses will varnish roan, but expressions can be subtle to extreme
Bronzing 1 gene with 100 alleles
black-based horses can appear chestnut in color

Whoops - I think I posted during a lag spike so I pressed submit twice


And thank you, that's really helpful

[EclipticEnd]

Some small tips of my own:

If it's a Black nose, then only one cream or pearl at the most. Black nosed horses are also not champagne. These include palomino and buckskin, for example.

If it's a Pink nose, check for obvious or faint speckles/freckles. Also check near the eyes. No freckles means cream and/or pearl, whereas obvious freckles means champagne. Faint freckles means champagne with one or more other dilutions, such as cream.

If it's a Pink nose without freckles, are the eyes grey/blue or brown? If they're grey/blue then it's either 2x cream or 1x cream 1x pearl. If they're brown then it's 2x pearl. If they're a different color, then there's 2x Tiger Eye genes in play.

If you know that a parent has two genes (for instance, a cremello has two cream genes), then you immediately know that the foal has one of those genes, courtesy of that parent. This also works in reverse; if you know that a parent has no genes (for instance, a chestnut has no extension (black) genes), then you know that the foal is missing one of those genes. A parent can only pass down what genes it has, so if, for example, you get a black from a chestnut, then the black horse can only have one black gene (Ee).

The above tip is useful in writing out genetics, but it's also good to keep in mind when you're dealing with a dilution mixture that's unfamiliar to you. If you can narrow down that one parent has two cream, or the parent has no cream, then you can narrow down the color of the foal.

Practice is good. Go through your un-labeled horses and work on assigning them colors. If you're not sure of a color, try using genetic notation to figure it out before asking for help. Genetic notation would be the Es and the Crs that stand for the genes present in the horse. (I'm always here if you have questions on those or want a walkthrough )

Work on one section of color at a time. Start with the basics: black, bay, seal, chestnut. Then start adding a dilution, such as cream. Work on those, then maybe start on pearls. Then maybe champagnes. The more you work on identifying them, the easier it'll be to know a color by looking at the horse rather than the parents.