What color is mama?

[Raikit]

So I have a very nice Arabian mare that I thought, based simply on appearance, was a cremello. Recently she had a chestnut filly. So now that I know she's not double cream (though honestly I would have known that if I'd bothered to look at her sire) I'm wondering what color she actually is. I don't think she's champagne because I don't anything that looks likes freckles or I'd think she was gold cream.

Here's mama:



And chestnut baby, just because:

[Malakai10]

Raikit

She's a palomino pearl.

[Djeraya]

Yep that seems right, a few horses of the Thompson's line have pearl.
Peppermint: red base + 1 Cream + 1 Pearl (dam: cremello = double cream, sire: red dun, hidden pearl); and also 1 dun and 2x Leopard
Baby: Chestnut + 1 Pearl
BTW second foal "Sweet Treat" is also Pearl-Carrier. Basically every foal you get from Peppermint that does not inherit the cream-gene has a hidden pearl

[Raikit]

Yep that seems right, a few horses of the Thompson's line have pearl.
Peppermint: red base + 1 Cream + 1 Pearl (dam: cremello = double cream, sire: red dun, hidden pearl); and also 1 dun and 2x Leopard
Baby: Chestnut + 1 Pearl
BTW second foal "Sweet Treat" is also Pearl-Carrier. Basically every foal you get from Peppermint that does not inherit the cream-gene has a hidden pearl

Okay. I thought pearl might be the culprit. Thank you for the info.
But how can we be sure the babies have pearl without breeding them? Pearl wouldn't have a visible effect on them that I'm aware so apart from testing or it showing up in breeding I don't know how we'd know for certain.

[Djeraya]

Okay. I thought pearl might be the culprit. Thank you for the info.
But how can we be sure the babies have pearl without breeding them? Pearl wouldn't have a visible effect on them that I'm aware so apart from testing or it showing up in breeding I don't know how we'd know for certain.

That's because genetics are logical
Genes always have two alleles = 2 copies. These copies can be active or not. When inheriting, only one copy is given to the foal, which of the two is random.
For example if we look onto the Cream Gene: a horse can have 1 Cream 1 Not Cream or 2 Cream or No Cream at all so CR/cr, CR/CR, cr/cr (non-active genes are marked with smallcase letters). Pearl is special, it is basically a variant of cream, which interacts with cream. For this reason a Cream-Pearl horse (your mare) has the genotype CR/PRL. It can give one cream to the foal or one pearl, never both and never none. So if it didn't get the cream, it has one copy of pearl for sure. Hope it is somewhat understandable Fascinating topic
You are right that if you have bad luck the foals of the foals will never actually show it. Best way to get it would be breeding them to a doublcream, you would then have 50% of getting a pearl-cream foal.

[Raikit]

Okay. I thought pearl might be the culprit. Thank you for the info.
But how can we be sure the babies have pearl without breeding them? Pearl wouldn't have a visible effect on them that I'm aware so apart from testing or it showing up in breeding I don't know how we'd know for certain.

That's because genetics are logical
Genes always have two alleles = 2 copies. These copies can be active or not. When inheriting, only one copy is given to the foal, which of the two is random.
For example if we look onto the Cream Gene: a horse can have 1 Cream 1 Not Cream or 2 Cream or No Cream at all so CR/cr, CR/CR, cr/cr (non-active genes are marked with smallcase letters). Pearl is special, it is basically a variant of cream, which interacts with cream. For this reason a Cream-Pearl horse (your mare) has the genotype CR/PRL. It can give one cream to the foal or one pearl, never both and never none. So if it didn't get the cream, it has one copy of pearl for sure. Hope it is somewhat understandable Fascinating topic
You are right that if you have bad luck the foals of the foals will never actually show it. Best way to get it would be breeding them to a doublcream, you would then have 50% of getting a pearl-cream foal.

Ooh, okay. I know about two copies and such but didn't realize that pearl and cream interacted that way. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Alana]

To my knowledge they do not interact that way, pearl need cream to show but you can have a horse with double cream and double pearl (cr/cr/prl/prl), no cream and no pearl (Cr/Cr/Prl/Prl) and everything inbetween (Cr/cr/prl/prl)(cr/cr/Prl/prl)(Cr/Cr/Prl/prl) etc.

you can not tell a pearl carrier from a non pearl carrier if the Cream gene is absent without test breeding to a Cream known to not carry Pearl and you can still not be 100% surtain unless a Cream/Pearl foal is produced of the pairing

[Malakai10]

To my knowledge they do not interact that way, pearl need cream to show but you can have a horse with double cream and double pearl (cr/cr/prl/prl), no cream and no pearl (Cr/Cr/Prl/Prl) and everything inbetween (Cr/cr/prl/prl)(cr/cr/Prl/prl)(Cr/Cr/Prl/prl) etc.

you can not tell a pearl carrier from a non pearl carrier if the Cream gene is absent without test breeding to a Cream known to not carry Pearl and you can still not be 100% surtain unless a Cream/Pearl foal is produced of the pairing

Nearly right.

When the horse is a double cream, it shows as such: Cr/Cr. Non-cream carrier would be cr/cr.
Double pearl would be Prl/Prl

Pearl show up either is the horse is homozygous for pearl or has a cream gene. So either: Prl/Prl or Prl/prl Cr/cr

I'm not sure what would happen is the horse was a double cream with pearl.

[Alana]

Nearly right.

When the horse is a double cream, it shows as such: Cr/Cr. Non-cream carrier would be cr/cr.
Double pearl would be Prl/Prl

Pearl show up either is the horse is homozygous for pearl or has a cream gene. So either: Prl/Prl or Prl/prl Cr/cr

I'm not sure what would happen is the horse was a double cream with pearl.

I found one site whom did testing that labeled Cream according to "No Dilution (nn) Single Dilute (nCr) Double Dilute (CrCr)" and they did the same with pearl

They also say this about double pearl genes without cream present "Two copies of the altered sequence detected. On a chestnut base color, a uniform apricot color of body hair, mane and tail will result."

I however got mixed up on the cream but to me a reccessive gene is written with small letter and a dominant one with a capital letter first and pearl is not dominant and cream is incomplete dominant, so I will try to learn using Ccr for cream and continue to use prl for pearl as opposed to for instance Silver or grey that is a domiant gene and thus written Si and G (the more correct labeling for Cream is actually CCr with the last Cr being placed higher up and being smaller but that wont be easy to accomplish unless you are writing in a word document or the like)

[Malakai10]

I found one site whom did testing that labeled Cream according to "No Dilution (nn) Single Dilute (nCr) Double Dilute (CrCr)" and they did the same with pearl

They also say this about double pearl genes without cream present "Two copies of the altered sequence detected. On a chestnut base color, a uniform apricot color of body hair, mane and tail will result."

I however got mixed up on the cream but to me a recessive gene is written with small letter and a dominant one with a capital letter first and pearl is not dominant and cream is incomplete dominant, so I will try to learn using Ccr for cream and continue to use prl for pearl as opposed to for instance Silver or grey that is a dominant gene and thus written Si and G (the more correct labeling for Cream is actually CCr with the last Cr being placed higher up and being smaller but that wont be easy to accomplish unless you are writing in a word document or the like)

I think I might have seen that site a while ago...