Help with this colt + his parents

[Sunpath]

Hello,

I would appreciate your input on what colour this colt is. I'm also suspecting that I got his mother's colour wrong, I'm not sure. To me he kind of looks like a buckskin roan but the mottled muzzle makes me suspect otherwise. I don't know what colour his sire is either, but there are gallery pictures of him as a foal if anyone would like to help me with that too

S.A. Cacophony

[BlackOak2]

Hello,

I would appreciate your input on what colour this colt is. I'm also suspecting that I got his mother's colour wrong, I'm not sure. To me he kind of looks like a buckskin roan but the mottled muzzle makes me suspect otherwise. I don't know what colour his sire is either, but there are gallery pictures of him as a foal if anyone would like to help me with that too

Cacophony appears to be an Amber Champagne Roan, with tiger eye. I don't see much indications for it (except at the front of the chest), but I suspect he might also be dun. The champagne is the cause of that 'mottled muzzle' you're suspect of. So you have the base right (bay) but not the variable (cream wasn't the culprit of the light coat).

As for his parents.
Cactus is another Amber Champagne Roan, with Lp, but no tiger eye.
And No Enigma is indeed a cremello... an unusually colored one. But their son, Cacophony, does not look like a double dilute, just a single... I suspect that she's a cream and pearl and not a double cream. But I can't quite locate where the pearl might have come down from.

Silverine or Totina might be able to locate and define where it is. That would make what we're seeing here, make sense. Cacophony, in that case, would be a hidden pearl carrier. To check it out, if you were to breed him to a double pearl, and hopefully he does not pass on the champagne, but does pass on the hidden pearl, you'll have your answer.

That's what I have to offer, though it doesn't help too much. Sorry about that.

[Sunpath]

Hello,

I would appreciate your input on what colour this colt is. I'm also suspecting that I got his mother's colour wrong, I'm not sure. To me he kind of looks like a buckskin roan but the mottled muzzle makes me suspect otherwise. I don't know what colour his sire is either, but there are gallery pictures of him as a foal if anyone would like to help me with that too

Cacophony appears to be an Amber Champagne Roan, with tiger eye. I don't see much indications for it (except at the front of the chest), but I suspect he might also be dun. The champagne is the cause of that 'mottled muzzle' you're suspect of. So you have the base right (bay) but not the variable (cream wasn't the culprit of the light coat).

As for his parents.
Cactus is another Amber Champagne Roan, with Lp, but no tiger eye.
And No Enigma is indeed a cremello... an unusually colored one. But their son, Cacophony, does not look like a double dilute, just a single... I suspect that she's a cream and pearl and not a double cream. But I can't quite locate where the pearl might have come down from.

Silverine or Totina might be able to locate and define where it is. That would make what we're seeing here, make sense. Cacophony, in that case, would be a hidden pearl carrier. To check it out, if you were to breed him to a double pearl, and hopefully he does not pass on the champagne, but does pass on the hidden pearl, you'll have your answer.

That's what I have to offer, though it doesn't help too much. Sorry about that.

Thanks a lot for your reply! Sounds like all three are pretty complicated haha. So to sum it up we're suspecting that Cacophony is an amber champagne roan with 1 cream from the mother, if she is indeed a carrier of double cream, but she might not be a double cream but rather a 1 cream + pearl?

What is it that makes pearl hidden if there's indeed a pearl gene in Cacophony?

Champagne and pearl are colours that pretty much doesn't exist where I am from, so I have very little knowledge about them.

[BlackOak2]

Cacophony appears to be an Amber Champagne Roan, with tiger eye. I don't see much indications for it (except at the front of the chest), but I suspect he might also be dun. The champagne is the cause of that 'mottled muzzle' you're suspect of. So you have the base right (bay) but not the variable (cream wasn't the culprit of the light coat).

As for his parents.
Cactus is another Amber Champagne Roan, with Lp, but no tiger eye.
And No Enigma is indeed a cremello... an unusually colored one. But their son, Cacophony, does not look like a double dilute, just a single... I suspect that she's a cream and pearl and not a double cream. But I can't quite locate where the pearl might have come down from.

Silverine or Totina might be able to locate and define where it is. That would make what we're seeing here, make sense. Cacophony, in that case, would be a hidden pearl carrier. To check it out, if you were to breed him to a double pearl, and hopefully he does not pass on the champagne, but does pass on the hidden pearl, you'll have your answer.

That's what I have to offer, though it doesn't help too much. Sorry about that.

Thanks a lot for your reply! Sounds like all three are pretty complicated haha. So to sum it up we're suspecting that Cacophony is an amber champagne roan with 1 cream from the mother, if she is indeed a carrier of double cream, but she might not be a double cream but rather a 1 cream + pearl?

What is it that makes pearl hidden if there's indeed a pearl gene in Cacophony?

Champagne and pearl are colours that pretty much doesn't exist where I am from, so I have very little knowledge about them.

I can't really offer much understanding about the genes that affect these colors in real life, so I'll stick to the knowledge just on the game.

Champagne will always offer freckles for us (that's the mottling your seeing, they're actually freckles), regardless of one gene or two, it will always look the same. When paired with one or two other dilution genes (cream or pearl, with the exception of it just being a single pearl), the freckles will get harder and harder to see. But they'll always be present if the champagne gene is present.

In the case of cream, two creams or a cream and a pearl will always offer pink skin and blue eyes, so it's also easy to see if it's a 'double dilute' for that scenario.

There is an aside to this when it comes to the tiger eye gene. The tiger eye gene can hide the blue eyes, making it difficult to distinguish between certain other genes and in the case of the combination of a triple dilute and tiger eye, it can make the eyes actually darker, instead of blue... so there are some weird exceptions. Stick to the basics though, it's easier that way.

However, when working with pearls, pearl is a recessive gene, meaning it requires two genes in order to see it expressed on the horse. Pearl is also found sharing the same spot with cream, so you can't have two creams and two pearls on the same horse. We can only have two creams OR two pearls OR a pearl and a cream... OR ... a single cream... a single pearl... or nothing at all.

A single cream is responsible for buckskin, smoky brown and black and palomino.
Two creams are responsible for perlino, cremello, smoky cream and brown cream.

When we have two pearls, it will be responsible for apricot, black pearl, brown pearl and bay (or wild bay) pearl. Double pearl is separated by double cream by the dark eyes, but also appears on pink skin.

So, I don't see your colt, Cacophony, as a double dilute, but since his mother IS a double dilute, she HAD TO HAVE passed a gene onward to him. Since he doesn't appear to be a double dilute (not light enough in my opinion), it would mean that it's NOT expressing and can ONLY be a pearl gene.
Of course, I could be wrong.

Oh, and I realize right now you might be confused by when I call something a dilute. When most or many of us refer to a single dilute, double dilute or triple dilute, we are generally specifically indicating the cream, pearl and champagne genes and some combination of these three. Whereas a single dilute is just ONE of these genes (palomino or buckskin, or classic champagne). A hidden (or single) pearl gene isn't usually described as a single dilute because a hidden pearl isn't expressed. A double dilute could be a champagne and a cream, two cream genes, a cream and a pearl or two pearl genes or some other combination therein. A triple dilute is a combination of champagne with double cream, double pearl or a cream and a pearl. A triple dilute is often also referred to as a pseudo-white because of the light coloration of it's coat, almost white, or white in color.

Did I hit everything? I think I did.

[Sunpath]

Oh, and I realize right now you might be confused by when I call something a dilute. When most or many of us refer to a single dilute, double dilute or triple dilute, we are generally specifically indicating the cream, pearl and champagne genes and some combination of these three. Whereas a single dilute is just ONE of these genes (palomino or buckskin, or classic champagne). A hidden (or single) pearl gene isn't usually described as a single dilute because a hidden pearl isn't expressed. A double dilute could be a champagne and a cream, two cream genes, a cream and a pearl or two pearl genes or some other combination therein. A triple dilute is a combination of champagne with double cream, double pearl or a cream and a pearl. A triple dilute is often also referred to as a pseudo-white because of the light coloration of it's coat, almost white, or white in color.

Did I hit everything? I think I did.

Thank you so much for your in depth comment I understand perfectly well what dilutes are and I know the difference of dominant vs recessive genes, I just had no knowledge about champagne or pearl (but now I do thanks to you, yay!).

[Malakai10]

Hello,

I would appreciate your input on what colour this colt is. I'm also suspecting that I got his mother's colour wrong, I'm not sure. To me he kind of looks like a buckskin roan but the mottled muzzle makes me suspect otherwise. I don't know what colour his sire is either, but there are gallery pictures of him as a foal if anyone would like to help me with that too

Cacophony appears to be an Amber Champagne Roan, with tiger eye. I don't see much indications for it (except at the front of the chest), but I suspect he might also be dun. The champagne is the cause of that 'mottled muzzle' you're suspect of. So you have the base right (bay) but not the variable (cream wasn't the culprit of the light coat).

As for his parents.
Cactus is another Amber Champagne Roan, with Lp, but no tiger eye.
And No Enigma is indeed a cremello... an unusually colored one. But their son, Cacophony, does not look like a double dilute, just a single... I suspect that she's a cream and pearl and not a double cream. But I can't quite locate where the pearl might have come down from.

Silverine or Totina might be able to locate and define where it is. That would make what we're seeing here, make sense. Cacophony, in that case, would be a hidden pearl carrier. To check it out, if you were to breed him to a double pearl, and hopefully he does not pass on the champagne, but does pass on the hidden pearl, you'll have your answer.

That's what I have to offer, though it doesn't help too much. Sorry about that.

Almost right.

You are correct in calling Cacophony a tiger eye amber champagne roan - he's almost certainly not dun. Even with cryptic duns, the coat is a distinctive 'dun' colour - a bit off, darker, duller. The coat is very much a bright amber champagne colour, none of the dun 'dustiness'.

Here are some amber champagnes (looking this up has also made me realised that champagnes appear to lighten as they get older.)
Tiger eye amber champagne, 3,5 years old

12 years old, same horse

Tiger eye metallic amber champagne, nearly 5 years old

12 years old, same horse

Tiger eye amber dun, 6 years old

13,5 years old, same horse

Tiger eye metallic amber dun, 4 years old

Nearly 10 years old, same horse


Cactus is an amber champagne roan blanket - you were right there.

Enigma is NOT a cremello. I would have said perlino but seeing as Cacophony doesn't have cream, Enigma must be a tiger eye buckskin pearl. (I say tiger eye because her eyes appear to be green.)

This is a tiger eye cremello:

[Sunpath]

...

Thank you so muck for your thorough comment! I learned a lot from what you wrote and from the pictures, thank you so much! It's really helped so much.

[Sunpath]

...

Perhaps I can ping you about this one as well This one I have as a seal brown but I feel like she's very dark in her legs and face and her body looks very light/greyish/muted? I don't think either of the parents look roan. Is this just a kind of funky seal brown expression?

S.A. Ballet

[Malakai10]

...

Perhaps I can ping you about this one as well This one I have as a seal brown but I feel like she's very dark in her legs and face and her body looks very light/greyish/muted? I don't think either of the parents look roan. Is this just a kind of funky seal brown expression?

S.A. Ballet

You're right about the seal brown and she just looks greyish because of the dun part. So, she's a brown dun.

The sire is a flaxen red dun tobiano, probably has sooty.

The dam is a silver dapple - this can also be called silver black.

[Sunpath]

Perhaps I can ping you about this one as well This one I have as a seal brown but I feel like she's very dark in her legs and face and her body looks very light/greyish/muted? I don't think either of the parents look roan. Is this just a kind of funky seal brown expression?

S.A. Ballet

You're right about the seal brown and she just looks greyish because of the dun part. So, she's a brown dun.

The sire is a flaxen red dun tobiano, probably has sooty.

The dam is a silver dapple - this can also be called silver black.

Oh! Dun? I didn't think of that at all when looking at the sire. I didn't think he looked dun, and honestly I still don't quite see it. But dun would absolutely explain why my mare looks like she does. Thank you!